{"id":1849,"date":"2025-12-15T16:02:14","date_gmt":"2025-12-15T16:02:14","guid":{"rendered":"https:\/\/html5accessibility.com\/stuff\/?p=1849"},"modified":"2025-12-15T16:02:14","modified_gmt":"2025-12-15T16:02:14","slug":"in-conversation-fireside-with-web-existentialist-eric-bailey-3-12-2025","status":"publish","type":"post","link":"https:\/\/html5accessibility.com\/stuff\/2025\/12\/15\/in-conversation-fireside-with-web-existentialist-eric-bailey-3-12-2025\/","title":{"rendered":"In conversation Fireside with Web Existentialist &#8211; Eric Bailey &#8211; 3\/12\/2025"},"content":{"rendered":"<p><img loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"alignnone size-full wp-image-1850\" src=\"https:\/\/html5accessibility.com\/stuff\/wp-content\/uploads\/2025\/12\/Screenshot-2025-12-15-150512.jpg\" alt=\"Circa 2019 - From across a crowded bar in Toronto, Eric gives me the 2 fingered salute, and yes that is Patrick Lauke sitting at the bar.\" width=\"680\" height=\"860\" srcset=\"https:\/\/html5accessibility.com\/stuff\/wp-content\/uploads\/2025\/12\/Screenshot-2025-12-15-150512.jpg 680w, https:\/\/html5accessibility.com\/stuff\/wp-content\/uploads\/2025\/12\/Screenshot-2025-12-15-150512-237x300.jpg 237w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 680px) 100vw, 680px\" \/><\/p>\n<p><a href=\"https:\/\/ericwbailey.design\/\">Eric<\/a> and I have crossed paths in the past, he is a thinker and prodigious developer\/advocate of accessibility practice and disability rights. I had the honour of spending an hour with him recently talking about disability, accessibility, politics, depression and religion amongst other things.<\/p>\n<p><iframe loading=\"lazy\" title=\"YouTube video player\" src=\"https:\/\/www.youtube.com\/embed\/NAbxfQrJrig?si=Ykc-iJhnYlsGF1ti\" width=\"560\" height=\"315\" frameborder=\"0\" allowfullscreen=\"allowfullscreen\"><\/iframe><\/p>\n<details>\n<summary>Transcript<\/summary>\n<pre>Could be a pair of David Swallow underpants.\r\nOh, yeah.\r\nYeah.\r\nWell, that's in the private collection.\r\nI don't actually have that published, but I do have a private collection of of certain items that\r\nIt is for the more discerning collector.\r\nOkay.\r\nRoomy and as comfortable as the shirts, and you definitely didn't pay me to say this.\r\nMoving swiftly on.\r\nOkay.\r\nSo I've got a lot of questions.\r\nIf you feel uncomfortable about any question or you don't, you know, just say fuck off, basically.\r\nAnd that will be fine.\r\nThat will be I will understand that you don't want to ask that question.\r\nIt's I mean, they're not overly personal, but you know, what we do and work and our lives, especially since we well, you do a lot of presenting and I present occasionally, but we're on social media.\r\nAnd so people know things about us and we, you know,\r\nconvey certain aspects of our private lives publicly.\r\nYeah, yeah.\r\nI mean, open book for better or for worse, just usually.\r\nOkay.\r\nSo, see, this is what happens.\r\nI just forget what I'm doing.\r\nWhat I will do first, and this is, as I say, you don't have to pick from under each of the characters, but now share.\r\nNow.\r\nLet me know.\r\nAll right, I'm going to do it this way.\r\nI can, I can quickly.\r\nNo, you're not supposed to see that.\r\nOkay.\r\nI don't think you saw it anyway.\r\nAnd what makes it worse is that when I have the screen sharing on, it doesn't, I have to actually push a button in order to see my, see my taskbar, which is really annoying.\r\nOkay.\r\nSo fine folks.\r\nYes.\r\nSo there we are.\r\nSo this is the, what we named is the Rogues Gallery.\r\nIt's just an aperitif to our further conversations.\r\nSo\r\nFirst thing I ask, and it's not a competition, it doesn't really matter if you do or do not, but can you name the people on this Rogues Gallery?\r\nLet's see.\r\nSo for the top left.\r\nThat individual is.\r\nI don't know their face, so I'm not sure.\r\nThat is the that's how can you not know Dr.\r\nSwallow's face?\r\nI use it all the time.\r\nThat was that was him when he was in Austria on holiday or some something.\r\nwearing an Austrian hat.\r\nThe next person.\r\nThat's Stuart Hay, if I'm not mistaken.\r\nNo, it's not.\r\nThat's he.\r\nThat's Ian Lloyd.\r\nHe does try to look a lot like Stuart Hay at certain times.\r\nI don't know.\r\nI don't know why.\r\nI mean, I think he himself has a fine visage and he should just accept the fact.\r\nBut no, that's Ian Lloyd.\r\nAnd that was taken at from CSUN 2024, I think.\r\nThe next person you can't not know.\r\nNo, that's.\r\nYeah, Patrick Lauke.\r\nWell, the way I pronounce his name, I don't think it's correct, but I just always pronounce it that way.\r\nAnd I say look, but it is Lauka or something or look or something.\r\nThat was from TPAC.\r\nSee, I've got I just got loads of photos, so it gives me an excuse to put photos up, especially of Dave and Pat\r\nand also quite a few of Lloydy these days.\r\nThat was in TPAC 2024, I think, in, where was it?\r\nIn Seville.\r\nVery nice.\r\nFancy.\r\nI'm sure that you recognize the next person, but maybe you don't.\r\nIt's the good witch, Glenda.\r\nYes, yes.\r\nWell, the goodness,\r\nis debatable, but the whitch part?\r\nNo.\r\nSorry.\r\nI always say these things about people, which is which run through.\r\nYeah, it is Glenda Sims.\r\nAnd the next person, I honestly don't know.\r\nAnd that's, that is Cynthia Shelley.\r\nSo when the when I release the interview, you'll be able to recognize it.\r\nbecause you've got over an hour.\r\nWhat about the second row, first person on the second row?\r\nThey look vaguely familiar, but I'm not sure.\r\nI have that.\r\nOkay.\r\nThe balance made that shirt.\r\nThat's a guy called James Craig, also known as James Craig.\r\nYeah, I know James Craig.\r\nI just don't know what he looks like.\r\nOne of the giants of accessibility at Apple.\r\nAnd the next person?\r\nI don't know that person.\r\nNow that is Ted.\r\nI can't remember his second name.\r\nIt's, well, it evades me.\r\nI do know it, but it's Ted.\r\nAnd he works at Intuit.\r\nHe used to work at.\r\nTed Drake.\r\nTed Drake, exactly.\r\nAnd he's very much involved in the CSUN organizing speakers for CSUN, stuff like that.\r\nYeah.\r\nSo that's Ted Drake.\r\nThank you.\r\nThe next person.\r\nSee, I know there's some, ringers in here.\r\nYeah, it's funny, just like, some of these people I don't know by face, but I know them by their writing.\r\nSo it's like, yeah.\r\nThat's Gerard, right?\r\nGerard Cohen, yes.\r\nI've known Gerard for years now.\r\nHe used to work at Wells Fargo and TPG used to have Wells Fargo as a\r\ncustomer.\r\nAnd I met him through that.\r\nBut we always have a drink and stuff at CSUN and wherever I see him, which is usually at a conference.\r\nAnd he's going to be a future participant or interviewee.\r\nSo there's something to look forward to.\r\nHe's a really nice guy, very including.\r\nI've noticed he's been doing a number of\r\nIt's not like online training that he's been doing through some, some, yeah, I can't remember what the name of the organization is, but yeah, so I've noticed that.\r\nDo you know the next person?\r\nIs that Jenny?\r\nI think.\r\nNo.\r\nOkay, then I don't know.\r\nIt's, it is one of the owners.\r\nI'll give you a clue.\r\nIt's, it's one of Glenda's bosses, big bosses.\r\nOh, my gosh.\r\nI'm blind.\r\nP.P.\r\nPK, right?\r\nOr?\r\nPreeti, yeah, Preeti Kumar.\r\nYep, okay.\r\nAnd I had a meeting with her about something or other at CSUN last year, and that was, I took that shot.\r\nThe next one?\r\nThat's Natalie.\r\nYeah, that's Natalie.\r\nShe's a future hot seater.\r\nAnd\r\neverybody knows this guy.\r\nNobody wants to know him, but everybody knows him.\r\nI am cursed with the knowledge of RZA, recognizing that face.\r\nThat's Adrian.\r\nYeah, he looks very, like he looks very thoughtful there.\r\nI would say more like he looks like he's trying to figure out how to beat you up.\r\nOh, maybe.\r\nYeah, he, well, that was at accessibility TO.\r\nSorry, access video conferencing in, where was it?\r\nIn Toronto.\r\nThat was last year.\r\nBut I used to work with Adrian in years gone by and we've remained firm friends ever since.\r\nAnd yeah, he seems to have a, everybody seems to know him.\r\nThe next person, this is one of those people that you may not know.\r\nThis is killing me because this is somebody else I also recognize the face and it's, I don't know the name off the top of my head.\r\nSo please go ahead.\r\nI mean, when his name first comes to me, it's Humberto Eco, but it's not, it's actually Joe Humbert.\r\nOkay.\r\nAnd he.\r\nHe's somebody else I used to work with that is involved in, he specializes in mobile accessibility with native applications.\r\nAnd he is involved at the W3C with the development of the Mobile Accessibility Task Force, the work that he's doing.\r\nSo I've got a number of pictures on him because he likes\r\nHe likes some of the t-shirts that I made, especially ones involving Dr.\r\nSwallow.\r\nSo don't ask me why, but he does.\r\nThey are publicly available is what about.\r\nI mean, his check's clear, so it's all good.\r\nYes, exactly.\r\nAnd then there, do you know the next person?\r\nI can recognize him when I'm at him.\r\nI've got to confess, the next three, their faces look familiar, but I don't know their names.\r\nThat's absolutely fine.\r\nI didn't recognize, I was sitting next to this guy in the middle at the bar, and it's only because he started to talk that I realized who it was.\r\nIt's a guy called Ricky Onsman, who I've been in...\r\nYeah, for years and works at TPG and is an Australian guy.\r\nI've known him for years and years, but I didn't recognize him in the flesh, so to speak.\r\nSo I subscribe to Ricky's RSS feed and I've definitely cooked meals he's put out for his recipes.\r\nOh, really?\r\nHe has good recipes too.\r\nYeah, I'm aware of his recipes, but I know he's one of the people at TPG that I enjoy his articles.\r\nAnd one of the things I liked about the TPGI blog\r\nwas that it had good technical articles and it wasn't, well, originally the TPG blog was just technical stuff and then it bifurcated and there's a marketing blog and there's a technical blog, but I really, and the technical blog is still that.\r\nAnd so you've got good people writing good, insightful information sharing with\r\nwith the community, which is what we like.\r\nAnd Ricky is one of those people that does it.\r\nThen, so this is not a particularly good photo.\r\nThis was, we were at CSUN, the one I'm talking about now, this is Sarah Horton.\r\nAnd yeah, you probably know her name because she's written a number of books.\r\nYeah, just incredible writer.\r\nAnything she puts out, I'm there.\r\nWell, that's that's Sarah Horton again.\r\nWe used to work together for years at TPG I think she works at some university now, but she got married.\r\nI think they got married.\r\nMaybe they did.\r\nBut anyway, her partner is David Sloan.\r\nwho I also used to work with and works TPG.\r\nThat picture was actually from a, we were at a reception.\r\nI hate to say this now, but it was a, well, I don't hate to say it, but because it was a audio eye reception at CSUN.\r\nI mean, essentially it was a drinks in Mike's room.\r\nSo we were there and\r\nFor some reason, I've got pictures of it to prove it, but she was wearing David Swallow's shoes at some point and dancing in his shoes.\r\nThese shoes are huge.\r\nI've also got pictures of him trying to put on her shoes, which are about four sizes, too small.\r\nIt was an interesting night.\r\nThis was the same night Lloydi was there and\r\nhe'd had a few and he fell over and like just mashed his face into the I it was it was high up.\r\nIt was like it was on the 20th floor or something.\r\nAnd I was concerned because the window, the door was open onto the balcony.\r\nI was concerned he was going to go out and and topple over, but he didn't.\r\nBut it was.\r\nYeah.\r\nAnyway, so that's Sarah and the last person\r\nis actually probably most people don't know him.\r\nThat is a guy called Shane Paciello, son of Mike Paciello.\r\nShane works for Level Access or something.\r\nHe's a project manager.\r\nHe used to be a project manager at TPG and I really enjoy his company.\r\nAnd so, and I saw that photo, I thought, I'll add Shane because it helps with my memory of these things.\r\nSo\r\nWe have a mixed bag of people there that you know and don't know.\r\nBut, you know, this is, well, I would say the, I would say there's a cross section of people that are involved in accessibility, but also it's,\r\nYeah, I noticed there's a lot of blokes involved in accessibility.\r\nThere was also a fair amount of women, but also basically white blokes like you and I, except that you were younger and better looking than I.\r\nBut flattery gets you everywhere, Steve.\r\nYeah.\r\nSo anyway, so I will, let's get to the meat of it now.\r\nOnce we, this was like the icebreaker.\r\nHopefully you're feeling comfortable.\r\nstop that sharing and we're back to you and I.\r\nAnd what happened before was that I accidentally flashed my questions.\r\nBut anyway, we can we can start.\r\nSo I'm not going to show you the questions because that's part of it.\r\nSo the mystery.\r\nYeah, I didn't.\r\nPart of the magic of being an interviewer.\r\nSo\r\nEric, what the fuck is going on in your country?\r\nYeah, well, we're in the like, I think the twilight years of a late capital imperialist system and the assholes have climbed over the walls and installed themselves in power.\r\nAnd yeah, you're looking at probably the death of the American Empire.\r\nYeah, I have that feeling myself, but I'm very much an audience member, I'm sure a lot of the people in the US are audience in that it may not, affect them in their local area, for example, but it's affecting lots of people around them.\r\nAnd then there's those people that actually live in the places where, yeah, it's\r\nYeah, unfortunately, the last however many years has made America's business a lot of people's business.\r\nAnd unfortunately, I think we're reaping what we sow here.\r\nYeah.\r\nSo how has it affected you personally as in, you know, the, I mean, where you live?\r\nAre there, is there ice raids, et cetera, or is it just more that you live?\r\nthat it's happening to friends and people that you don't know.\r\nYeah, I live in a very progressive area.\r\nDespite that, there have been ICE raids, notable like a kidnapping of a student from one of the universities nearby.\r\nAnd that was towards the beginning of this nightmare.\r\nThey're continuing.\r\nThere's some pretty good response networks in place.\r\nBut we are\r\nI live in Massachusetts in the United States.\r\nYou're typically one of the targets of the current administration's ire because we tend to put up resistance to the current illegal and oftentimes unconstitutional mandates.\r\nAnd so that's great.\r\nI love that our politicians, for the most part, are actually doing what we need them to do.\r\nWe're starting to\r\ndevelop kind of more local response networks on the state level, including creating an alternate network to the CDC, which has been compromised.\r\nThe mayor of Boston, Michelle, is amazing in terms of that.\r\nSo it's one of those things.\r\nI don't like the snow, but I love where I live.\r\nThat's what, so you live in Boston?\r\nJust outside of Boston.\r\nBecause that's where Sarah Horton and David Sloan live.\r\nOh, I should hit them up.\r\nYeah.\r\nI'm pretty sure they do because they live in some sort of like, I can't remember the name, but some suburb that sounds, you know, sort of cool.\r\nAnd yeah, so anyway, yes.\r\nSo how has this affected you personally?\r\nI mean,\r\nYou know what?\r\nI'm incredibly depressed, honestly.\r\nLike, yeah.\r\nI was raised Jewish.\r\nAnd so part of that is like a very thorough education on how fascism comes to rise and leads to things like ethnic cleansings.\r\nAnd history does not repeat, but it sure as fuck rhymes.\r\nAnd, you know,\r\nThe fact that everybody has like low-key capitulated to a monstrous bully when it's like history has proven the exact thing you want to do is defy them and not grant them this kind of power.\r\nYeah.\r\nDrives me up the wall.\r\nI'm.\r\noften times just screaming at my inability to affect change on a level that would change this.\r\nAnd how has this affected your personal life?\r\nI mean, as I understand it, you're in a relationship and think that you don't have children,\r\nyou?\r\nI've got a dog.\r\nBut that's yeah, that's more that's problem enough.\r\nYeah, I'm not advocating that you have children, but it makes life more complicated with children.\r\nSomebody was Pat was talking about this is not online, but was was chatting to me the other day about the\r\nthat his son was involved in a in a presentation or, you know, thing at school where they were talking about AI.\r\nAnd but it was all very positive.\r\nYou know, they had a very positive spin on, you know, the the future and AI.\r\nAnd I was just thinking.\r\nWell, well.\r\nObviously that doesn't gel with what my feelings are about it, my understanding, but also for kids.\r\nI was just thinking, well, you can't tell them the truth.\r\nYou can't tell them your truth anyway.\r\nYou can't tell them that, you know, AI absolutely sucks and it sucks, you know, huge dogs balls all over the place.\r\nAnd it's and it's not a force for good.\r\nBut\r\nIf you tell me, you know, you don't want to, you know, sort of you don't want to sort of like make them lose all hope in life.\r\nYeah.\r\nYeah.\r\nIt's one of those things where it's like if you want to foster like curiosity in a way that's like, I guess you as a parent would seem like\r\nPositive, I don't know, like I feel a little uncomfortable 'cause it's well out of my area of expertise, but like you can leave a little, leave a little breadcrumbs, yeah, to for them to follow.\r\nEverything's outside my area of expertise, so don't worry about it.\r\nYeah, You thought about accessibility, didn't you?\r\nWell, so my partner's a teacher and we talk about this a lot or this kind of thing where it's like there's a certain degree as like an authoritative figure over children where you\r\nyou're in for a penny and for a pound.\r\nLike you're going to instruct them on how to like navigate through the world, whether you like it or not.\r\nSo like, how can you equip them to succeed?\r\nAnd part of that is like, yeah, it's the same thing that like journalists struggle with for no good reason, which is like the myth of impartiality, which is like,\r\nWhat is that?\r\nThere's no such thing.\r\nThey don't seem to struggle much in the States with that.\r\nWell, they don't struggle over here with much or either.\r\nI'm going to pick up my dog who is whining one second.\r\nYeah, yeah, for sure.\r\nSo she's very needy when it's winter and she's cold.\r\nWhere is she?\r\nThis is chicken.\r\nHey, chicken.\r\nWhat time is she?\r\nCavapoo?\r\nYep.\r\nHavanese poodle.\r\nShe's tragically shortened to have a poo, which all right.\r\nYep.\r\nShe's a rescue, like 3 and change.\r\nYeah.\r\nWe paid like 800 quid for our dog.\r\nThis was 2018.\r\nBut she's had so much illness that it's just, yeah.\r\nThe cost to us is dwarfed.\r\nBut she part of the family, so we have to\r\nWe don't have to, but we want to look after her and keep her happy and well as she possibly can.\r\nI mean, I love dogs.\r\nI often say this and I'll say it again, dogs are the best people.\r\nYeah, no, I'm like, you say, how's my mental health?\r\nLike one of the, she's a, she's a load bearing part of my support structure.\r\nYeah, yeah, exactly.\r\nI know what you mean.\r\nI mean, I just, I, because as I said, was saying to you earlier that my dog Lola's been ill of late and it just really affect like the thought of her being so ill and worrying about her passing away.\r\nIt just really got me down.\r\nI mean, it got us all down, got my wife down too.\r\nThe kids, yeah.\r\nlive on a different planet, I think.\r\nBut there's still, but it's just, it was just so depressing.\r\nSo I was so happy that once that she was able, because she just likes to go to the park and run around and be an idiot, just like she's got a pea brain, I'm sure.\r\nBut what is in that pea is a lot of love.\r\nYeah, it's great to get you out of your own head, like a little green area where I live and like, same thing, like just taking her there to smell and romp around is such a good antidote to like doom scrolling on my phone.\r\nYeah.\r\nYou know, marinating in the things I already know that are bad.\r\nYeah, exactly.\r\nI mean, again, yeah, to be honest, I wouldn't like to be anybody in the States at the moment.\r\nEven those people that have a comparatively sheltered life compared to the others, but I just...\r\nof shit that you see on, you know, people being, people being disappeared, you know, just people being abused and for sport, which is essentially what it seems to be about.\r\nYeah, the cruelty is the point.\r\nPerformative.\r\nYeah.\r\nPerformative cruelty.\r\nNow, okay, we'll moving swiftly on from there because\r\nYeah, unfortunately, I tend to ask depressing questions, so I'm sorry.\r\nNo, it's refreshing because like another thing that feeds the depression is like, you wouldn't know the fuck this is going on at like at work and spend 40 to 60, let's be real, it's the US 60 hours plus at work and like you wouldn't think any of this shit is going on.\r\nEveryone likes to.\r\ntalk about with your colleagues or it's just not?\r\nOh, I talk about it with my colleagues, but like, you know, the civility politics of it all is just infuriating.\r\nIt's like you're just pretending like everyone isn't living, you know, depressed and terrified.\r\nOr if, yeah, God help you.\r\nYeah, you, you know, soldier on.\r\nIt's like the English saying about the stiff upper lip.\r\nYeah.\r\nRegardless of what the fuck, you know, is.\r\nAnd it's like that meme that we always see about, you know, the person, well, the animal sitting there drinking their morning coffee and saying, you know, everything's fine and places burning around them.\r\nYeah, it's that idea.\r\nSo I'll move on to the next question, which is lived experience.\r\nHow do you view your own intersection with disability?\r\nYeah.\r\nThat's a good question.\r\nI feel more confident with.\r\nYeah, it's changed throughout the years.\r\nLike I started.\r\nAnd I think like as a preface, like we live in a deeply ableist and eugenicist culture.\r\nAnd so like with that, you're kind of.\r\nborn into thinking usually like you don't really question your disabled identity unless you're made to.\r\nAnd like one really good thing about kind of like reading up more about disability justice and that kind of space is like exactly how to untangle those views.\r\nAnd so like originally I kind of was like, well, I don't really identify as disabled.\r\nAnd then like one of the first kind of instructive moments is like,\r\nyou'll wear glasses there, buddy, which is, kind of the shallow end of the pool, but it's like, that's become so normalized that we don't question it, where like, I take these off, I legally can't drive.\r\nYeah.\r\nAnd, you know, QED.\r\nAnd then, like, I talked about it in my Accessibility Toronto talk, where kind of recently...\r\nI've done a lot of soul searching and like there's a lot of traits there that are like present that are on the like neurodivergent end of things.\r\nI haven't done the official like evaluations because I'm terrified of the current CDC.\r\nYou haven't got the diagnosis.\r\nYeah, because I think that'll put me on a list which will throw me in a camp if things don't go pear-shaped.\r\nYeah, I'll probably with your output, they'll probably\r\nPut you in the cab anyway.\r\nAny independent thinker of any type will be scooped up.\r\nSo.\r\nYeah.\r\nBut yeah, it's just I think having that framework to sort of question those sorts of things and because I think a little bit of that might have been just like some subconscious denial.\r\nBut like, I think it's pretty clear at this point, you know, one thing I don't mind chatting about is like, I definitely have aphantasia.\r\nAnd I choose.\r\nLike the inability to form mental pictures.\r\nSo like.\r\nI thought somebody else who's got that.\r\nYeah.\r\nI always thought it was like a narrative conceit, but I'm like, it's like, oh yeah, no, like I don't have like these vivid imaginative, you know, daydream sequences.\r\nPeople just do that.\r\nAnd like, you know, if I want to like conjure the mental picture of an apple, say like that takes work, that takes focus.\r\nAnd like it's very like.\r\ntransient, like if I don't maintain that concentration, like it just kind of fades to black.\r\nAnd that's just how I've always been.\r\nI just never really stopped to question if that was like, you know, not the norm.\r\nSo you see that as a disability?\r\nI think it's gets into, it's definitely a neurodivergent trait.\r\nYeah.\r\nBut again, is neurodiversion necessarily a disability?\r\nI don't know.\r\nI mean, it's...\r\nI think it's under the larger umbrella of like a disability.\r\nUmbrella, yeah.\r\nIt definitely does create barriers.\r\nI mean, one of my daughters has ADHD and is autistic.\r\nAnd I definitely see that as being problematic for\r\nHer at certain times in her life, because...\r\nwith just the way that she interacts with people.\r\nYeah.\r\nYeah.\r\nAnd I definitely like there's some other tells in that kind of camp as well.\r\nBut like the flip of it is like, I think a lot of where I am and who I am is kind of leaning into those traits as well.\r\nYeah.\r\nIt's a double edged sword for sure.\r\nBut I don't know.\r\nI recently got diagnosed with diabetes.\r\nThat's definitely a disability, but like, what sort of diabetes do you have?\r\nType two?\r\nYeah, I recently got diagnosed with type two diabetes.\r\nHigh five.\r\nYou got the little machine?\r\nNo.\r\nWhat little machine?\r\nI haven't got any, like, I don't need, it's, you know, age-related.\r\nAnd at this stage, I'm not, I don't need to take any medication.\r\nI've just, they put me into some support group and it's got a app with it.\r\nAnd what I'm trying to do is lose weight by changing my diet and continue to do light regular exercise.\r\nYeah, I have a continual glucose monitor, CGM.\r\nIt's like a little.\r\nlittle bug that lives on your arm and it just has a little needle that samples your blood sugar level and makes your phone scream at you if you eat too much cake.\r\nOh, really?\r\nSo it helps you to moderate what your intake.\r\nSo you don't have to have, you don't have to take insulin or anything for you.\r\nYeah, no, thank God I don't have to inject insulin right now, knock on wood.\r\nBecause like that's another whole mess in the States, which is like our private health care.\r\nYeah, yeah, we talked about, I've talked about that with both Cynthia and Crystal, because yeah, it's just that's something that's alien to me because I've always lived in a country that has universal health care.\r\nWell, you know, I started off living in Australia and in the UK and it's just, you know, in Europe, it's\r\nsome form of universal health care.\r\nIt's not exactly the same.\r\nSome of it is, you know, managed insurance.\r\nBut yeah, nobody goes broke from health care.\r\nYeah.\r\nLike it's one of those things where it's like people refusing an ambulance because it would put them irreparably in debt.\r\nLike we as a society should have stopped and said, all right, some people need to go to jail.\r\nLike, yeah, well, it's just that it's just something that that\r\nI'm not anti, you know, capitalist in in the sense, but some things just shouldn't be run for a profit motive.\r\nHealth being one of them.\r\nEducation being another government being another that, you know, it's, yeah, it's definitely a slippery slope.\r\nWhat was I going to say?\r\nSo\r\nI know you've had mental health issues.\r\nI mean, I have suffered from myself from depression for most of my adult life and I take medication for it.\r\nI've made, you know, no secret of that.\r\nI don't know whether I see it, you know, in terms of disability, it's just something that makes me me.\r\nYeah.\r\nYeah, I was going to say like a lot of the things that I like kind of consider under that larger disability umbrella, like we don't kind of consider the classic kind of forms of disability.\r\nLike I'm not in a wheelchair.\r\nYeah.\r\nI have what you are, what you see.\r\nI have low vision, but like not to the point where it impedes, you know, my day-to-day.\r\nYeah, those are kind of the classic archetypes, but like.\r\nYeah, I have depression as well.\r\nI manage it with medication as well as therapy.\r\nI did therapy, but I haven't.\r\nI'll tell you what made a big difference for me was that all getting older seems to be things that seem because I used to have really bad anxiety all the time as well.\r\nOccasionally I had to take, well, I take anxiolytics, antidepressant medication, but I used to have to also\r\ntop it up with some Valium or some, diazepin type things on occasion because it was so the anxiety was so bad.\r\nBut that hasn't happened to me in the last couple of years, which is great.\r\nThat's awesome.\r\nYeah.\r\nLike, and that's the other end of it is like, I, I firmly believe in destigmatizing it about talking about it.\r\nAnd like, that's another generational notions around disability, which is like,\r\nwe've gone from, gosh, Homer just had an article with the name for it.\r\nBut basically like, you sequester your weird aunt away because they're, not like us.\r\nAnd that's generally shifted to like understanding what the heck is going on.\r\nAnd the only way that really changes is if we like collectively kind of talk about it.\r\nAnd so like we have more shared support.\r\nYeah, and normalize it, I suppose, or just, or bring it,\r\nThree.\r\nIt is probably a better word than normalize.\r\nYeah.\r\nI mean, I don't, you know, I don't wear on my sleeve, so to speak, but I, you know, I do.\r\nI don't hide it because I know that there's lots of other people that are in this situation.\r\nSo yeah, I can't like more than I have fingers and toes like people I've talked to that I've like worked with or friends with that like\r\ndidn't feel comfortable talking about it.\r\nSo like messaged me on the side and like, yeah, getting rid of that stigma, I think is really big.\r\nYeah, well, one of the ways I tried to do that was that, well, as well as just mentioning it in, you know, I created a shirt with with sertraline on it with a pill, you know, 50 milligram, 100 milligram.\r\nAnd the number of I got quite a few people that I knew\r\nyou know, sort of responding, saying that's great.\r\nAnd what, you know, they themselves take that because I don't, especially with mental health, there's a lot of stigma about actually taking medication.\r\nAnd I say, well, look, you know, because I was at the point 30 years ago, I was at the point where\r\nI was feeling so bad and my life was just so shit that I either had a choice.\r\nI was on this anti-depressant, which didn't really help during my 20s.\r\nAnd then I was just getting worse and worse and worse.\r\nI felt so bad, like I couldn't get up with, stand up without having severe anxiety.\r\nAnd so I thought, I'm either something's going to change or I'm going to top myself.\r\nAnd I went and saw the doctor and he said, try these.\r\nAnd which was at this time was a new class of drugs or a newly available class of drugs in Australia sertraline.\r\nAnd from the moment I took them, not the moment from the, you know, I woke up the next day after first taking them and I just felt better.\r\nI just thought, I didn't feel, you know, like happy.\r\nBut I feel able to cope with my existence.\r\nYeah, I fought getting a prescription for a really long time.\r\nLike I was like, I think this is something I can work through with therapy.\r\nAnd my two thoughts here.\r\nOne, the quality of therapists are unfortunately unevenly distributed.\r\nAnd I think that fortunately some really good advice somebody told me, which is like, if it's not working,\r\nFire your therapist.\r\nIt's nothing personal.\r\nYou have nothing to prove to them.\r\nIt's just business.\r\nAnd find a better one if you have that privilege or the ability to.\r\nOh, yeah, definitely.\r\nI mean, you're paying them.\r\nYou know, if they're not providing a good service, then you tell them the bugger off and find somebody else.\r\nI mean, I think that talking therapy is, or therapy in general, is an important part of helping you to, you know, to\r\nrefocus how you're feeling about yourself and et cetera.\r\nBut yeah, I don't think I could have done it without the drugs.\r\nYeah, and that's the thing is like the better therapist I found, like eventually was like candid.\r\nAnd they're like, I think we've reached a point where like you need chemical intervention.\r\nAnd you know, I talk a lot about like that disabled identity in the abstract, but like\r\nI was holding on to this like really rigid idea of self, which is like, I alone can like mentally force my way through this sort of thing.\r\nAnd like I had a lot of hesitancy around taking on a prescription to deal with like the depression and the anxiety.\r\nAnd like she led me to a framework that's a little bit more adaptive, which\r\ndovetails quite nicely into like a larger disabled identity conversation of like, what is me?\r\nYou know, why do I draw these artificial lines?\r\nWhy am I so afraid of these things?\r\nCan I interrogate that?\r\nAnd same as you, like, you know, we started on a low dose, but like it just evened things out a little bit more than a lot of it.\r\nYeah, gave me a fighting chance.\r\nThat's what it did, you know, gave me the opportunity to have some perspective, whereas\r\nbefore I was living this fucking nightmare that never went away.\r\nAnd I was able to step back from that a bit.\r\nYeah.\r\nAs I say, I mean, it didn't, you know, I still had anxiety and still suffered depression, but over the years and before that, and along with that, I also saw a psychiatrist and therapist and things like that.\r\nBut I haven't for years.\r\nWhich you can probably tell that's what turned into some sort of mad old goat or something.\r\nBut anyways.\r\nAnother thing they don't tell you is like, sometimes it's just a sometimes thing.\r\nLike, people see therapists for a little bit to work through something.\r\nSometimes they see them for their entire life.\r\nIt depends on your need.\r\nBut like, we just don't collectively talk about this shit.\r\nAnd it like drives me up the wall.\r\nIt's like.\r\nOh, well, we're talking about it now, though.\r\nYeah, Like you go to a dentist if your tooth hurts, you know, you go.\r\nsee a proctologist if your ass hurts, like, Yeah, I've done both.\r\nYeah, so I'm very experienced in my life.\r\nYeah,\r\nYeah, like that's another layer to it, which is like, especially if you come up, I think, in like computer science, like you're made to believe that your brain, like your body is this like little like mech suit for your brain, which is like this perfect\r\nplatonic ideal of cognition and beautiful ideas flow forth into the world and you just happen to have to walk around and live in a body and eat food to keep it going.\r\nThe real truth is like the brain-body connection is very fucking real and like you're as much a product of like your physical body as much as you are like the thoughts and like turns out, oops, they're interrelated.\r\nAnd so like, you know, again, like it's part of that stigma, I think, around like,\r\nYou know, your body is a part of you for better, for worse, and you got to live in it.\r\nAnd so like, I guarantee you, if you have a hemorrhoid and you're suffering the pain of it, you're going to be a completely different person until you get those symptoms addressed.\r\nSo yeah, definitely, definitely.\r\nYeah.\r\nI was going to say, I'll cut that bit out, but fuck it, I won't.\r\nIt's just part of the conversation.\r\nMoving safely on yet again.\r\nHow has your work life been affected by the war on woke?\r\nAs in, you know, anti-DEI, just the whole thing about, you know, in the States especially, but also in other places.\r\nYeah.\r\nSort of deprioritizing accessibility or disability related issues, deprioritizing any issues not really related to\r\nAdult white men.\r\nYeah, yeah.\r\nThere's definitely been effects.\r\nYou know, your classic like, let's rebrand this and not talk about it directly.\r\nI've seen that come down the pike through how we talk about certain things.\r\nMicrosoft.\r\nwhich is our parent company, 86ed their annual diversity reports, which is, I feel, cowardly.\r\nAnd you think that this was a direct result of the change in political, climate, government, whatever?\r\nOh, undoubtedly.\r\nThank God the European Accessibility Act exists because we do business and turns out, you know,\r\nI was, yeah, I was talking to Cynthia about that, but, you know, just like the carrot versus the stick with accessibility and people sort of, you know, some people will say, oh, you know, they didn't like the idea of having laws around or having it codified.\r\nI think it's great because it actually does make people sit up and listen and make people actually do things more than people make\r\nlike, you know, organizations, companies take it seriously.\r\nYeah, I think it's, you know, it's one of those things where to me the value has always been intrinsic, but turns out at a certain point, and I know you know this, like you need to appeal to a higher authority, which is usually law.\r\nAnd it sucks if you wind up there, but like at the same time,\r\nthese laws exist for a reason, and that's because a lot of people who have a direct quality of life impact for the lack of accessibility spent their precious time on this planet pushing said laws.\r\nSo they exist for a reason, and I'm here as a result of that.\r\nYeah, I'd be good.\r\nYeah.\r\nI mean, as I say, I mean, I'm totally comfortable with laws and I actually appreciate them because they actually\r\ndo codify things within practice, you know, and and and make it part of the a business process whereby the business has to think about this, because otherwise they'll get fined by the by their, you know.\r\nthe particular state that they work in, or by the European state in this case.\r\nI mean.\r\nit's it's it's not at the same level of litigation or or you know.\r\nthat has occurred in the States because it seems like the way everybody does things, they sue each other.\r\nYeah.\r\nBut still, I have been hearing from certain customers that, you know, they're getting, they have to respond to certain things that the government is already or individuals based upon the framework and the framework of actually, you know,\r\ncome to them and said, this isn't working.\r\nAnd they set up and take notice because they, because of the laws.\r\nYeah, I mean, I think a lot about like, the web and I think a lot of accessibility work is like inherently anti-capitalist and like, so we've tried to contort it into being like a vehicle to do a capitalism.\r\nAnd so like, I think that's one of the reasons why we, what we do is in the margins.\r\nAnd it's interesting when you think about it as like infrastructure where if you find a architect and you explain how the web is built to somebody like who can go to jail for building a building that kills people, like the way we build the web is so flimsy and crap.\r\nLike if these were houses, they'd be collapsing on people on the left and right.\r\nYeah.\r\nIt's like without that regulation,\r\nThere just honestly isn't a lot of reason for a profit motivated organization to give a shit.\r\nYeah, yes, yes.\r\nI, yeah.\r\nI used a recently used a one of these apps for getting food delivered.\r\nAnd well, it's actually my daughter was using it.\r\nShe made an order, immediately realized that it was going to the wrong place.\r\nYeah.\r\nYeah.\r\nCan't change it.\r\nI mean, I'm talking about instantly realized, oh, it's going to the wrong place.\r\nWeren't allowed to change it.\r\nSo then that cost me 30 quid.\r\nYep.\r\nBecause food was delivered at 11:00 tonight somewhere that didn't and they couldn't.\r\nThe number of times, my buddy across town has gotten like some Thai food that he can't even eat.\r\nI'm just like, sorry, man.\r\nIt's just, it's, yeah, it's just like, I don't, that is just poor user, you know, it's poor usability on the part of the app, but they, and their processes, they didn't seem to give a shit about it.\r\nYeah, okay.\r\nbecause it won't stop me using it, but it will mean that I spend money that I don't necessarily need to.\r\nAnyway, yeah, going back to me again.\r\nSee, I it's just this is just a vehicle for me to rave.\r\nThat's all.\r\nOkay.\r\nNext question.\r\nIt's I'm talking still about depression, anxiety, I think.\r\nDo you think\r\nDepression, anxiety, ADHD, et cetera, is more prevalent in accessibility workers.\r\nI don't know.\r\nI think like a lot of it, I think is kind of parallel to the like autism conversations writ large where it's like, I don't know if it's an uptick in\r\nits prevalence as much as it is we as a society have better mechanisms for talking about it and identifying it.\r\nSo like I do think there are more people in accessibility who have a personal connection to it.\r\nThat might be through ADHD and depression and anxiety, but I also think like we're probably net a little bit more equipped to talk about it than\r\nother folks, especially in a professional context, like there's still a lot of danger in saying like, I have depression at work where suddenly like HR is taking a real close look at you.\r\nYeah, yeah.\r\nWell, yeah, that's one of the, yes, in general, when I'm, when I was at TPG, my boss, you know, Mike and Debs and Charlie knew about my struggles.\r\nI didn't mention them once the TPG got bought by Vispero.\r\nI just, but now I'm part owner of a company, so it doesn't, it's really is that how I treat the people that work for us.\r\nI work with, you know.\r\nWell, like I see you and I raise you here where it's like, I think like depression and like\r\nattention issues are double-edged swords where it's like, a lot of, I think a lot of my like depression also opens the door to thinking critically about things because, and that's really good if you work in software because you think about failure paths, you think about non-ideal situations, you think about like how could this be abused or misused.\r\nAnd so for like somebody like me that like has to build a lot of things that\r\nI don't get to revisit and also get distributed at a global scale by like an unknown amount of people with an unknown amount of like things they need to do.\r\nThat really is helpful for thinking through like exactly how can I make this as self-sufficient as possible in a way that like is accessible to the people that need it, but also serves the needs of like designers that just want to put a table on a website, you know, and not think too hard about it.\r\nYeah.\r\nAnd the ADHD thing, like, I don't know, jury's out, but I, since I can't visualize things, I think in related concepts a lot.\r\nAnd so I didn't realize this until way too late in the game, which is like, those logical leaps may not occur to everyone around me.\r\nAnd so one of the coping mechanisms I've cultivated is like explaining it.\r\nAnd I'll say like, the connecting thought here is A to B.\r\nI'm like, that's great for conversations with people when we're like talking about what should we get for dinner and I suddenly start talking about like, I don't know, helicopters.\r\nBut like, it's also helpful when you work in systems, which like surprise, all of the web is just systems all the way down.\r\nSo like, you know, it giveth and it taketh away.\r\nYeah.\r\nno, I mean, I'd ask that question myself.\r\nI was asking that question because and I think that that your answer is right.\r\nI think that there's more there's more opportunity to be able to talk about those, you know, mental health, physical health, whatever in the accessibility space.\r\nYeah.\r\nI don't think that necessarily I suppose.\r\nWell, I was trying to understand whether the actual the job, you know, is killing us or is it, you know.\r\nYeah, it's not.\r\nIt's not helping.\r\nNo, no, you got to.\r\nI mean, that's another thing I talked about in that talk, which is like, you got to really, like, cultivate some strategies to, like, focus.\r\non how to take care of yourself before you can take care of somebody else.\r\nBecause for people like us, this job will take and take and take and take and take.\r\nYeah.\r\nAnd you need to figure out where that line is.\r\nAnd like, having crossed that line, like you can give too much of yourself and then there's nothing left to give.\r\nAnd so like, it's not selfish as much as it is like sustainable.\r\nAnd like, I know I'm speaking in really general abstracts, but it's like,\r\nThe web never stops.\r\nThe work never stops.\r\nSo that's, yeah, that is the thing.\r\nThat's one of the things I realized in doing the stewardship of specifications at W3C is to think that you're going to be an editor for life or anything.\r\nIt just doesn't work.\r\nI mean, the specifications live on, like HTML lives on\r\npast my direct involvement in it, lives on past, you know, Ian Hickson, who was the great, you know, sort of changer of the way HTML was developed.\r\nBut he saw himself as, you know, editor for life or that's how he, you know, and he's, he burned out, I think, and just disappeared.\r\nYeah, and that's, even on a good trajectory, your average tenure in tech is like 3, two to three years at a place, which is ridiculous.\r\nBut say I got hit by a bus tomorrow, like, how is my\r\nplace of employment going to sustain these practices without me?\r\nLike it's a savior complex and that sucks.\r\nLike, you know, fuck that.\r\nYeah, definitely.\r\nI think we have time.\r\nWe've been speaking for just over an hour, but we have time for one more question.\r\nDo it, buddy.\r\nGet weird.\r\nDoes spirituality religion play a part in your work?\r\nDamn, Steve.\r\nWell, I'm interested in that because, I mean, myself, I don't have a, I don't, I'm not religious.\r\nYeah.\r\nBut definitely my politics does play a part in my work.\r\nBut, you know, I just, yeah, I'm just interested because also I've just, I've worked with people that I were, that were highly religious.\r\nAnd I just see how it's affected their outlook or not affected the way that they, you know, act and towards other people.\r\nYeah.\r\nOkay.\r\nWell, you know, speaking of savior complexes, so like, I'm not religious.\r\nI said I was raised Jewish, but I don't practice.\r\nI think.\r\nthere's different motivating factors for coming into this kind of work.\r\nBut also, if you look at the history of disability and religion, I think, unfortunately, the no-no word of saviorism pops up a lot, which has definitely altered the course of\r\nhow we as a society talk about disability.\r\nAnd so I'm always a little nervous about that because like, there's a direct line between, institutionalization and religion and like, speaking for an individual and what their needs are compared to letting the individual self, advocate.\r\nAnd everyone's on a spectrum, but it's like, there's a world of difference between, you know, somebody who\r\njust by virtue of accident of birth, can't see versus somebody who may have a lot more, what I would constitute as like severe needs.\r\nAnd so people coming into the work through the model of a savior mindset always make me ambiently a little nervous.\r\nin the same breath, I do know people who are religious, who do work in accessibility, and they're lovely, beautiful, wonderful human beings.\r\nIt's just like...\r\nOh yeah, so yeah, so do I.\r\nBut what my experience has been that certain people that with that I actually don't think that conservative Christianity or conservative any religion that has any place or is helpful in any way to the\r\ncause of supporting or increasing disability or decreasing the effects of disability, to be honest.\r\nBut that's my way.\r\nBut then again, I had a boss for 15 years that was of a Christian church that I always thought was\r\nreally fucked.\r\nAnd I still think they're fucked.\r\nI mean, I don't have, but that person always acted with integrity.\r\nI didn't even know that person was in the church until a third person happened to mention it after five years of working with the person.\r\nAnd I've seen the person accept, you know, sort of people that are professed themselves as Satanists.\r\nI think it was a bit tongue in cheek, but that was Haydon Pickering, as was said that he was.\r\nYeah.\r\nYeah.\r\nBut.\r\nYeah, like, I mean, I guess it's like, you know, I promised you an overlay reference here, but it's like, it's the same shit, like who is getting centered and why?\r\nAnd like, if it's centering somebody who is not disabled as an attempt to try to\r\nfix them.\r\nLike I'm immediately like, let's suss as fuck.\r\nSo.\r\nYeah.\r\nit's, I suppose what I'm trying to convey is that people can have their religious beliefs, but they can still support a humanist sort of philosophy.\r\nAnd they could still, people who have a religious belief, but then don't immediately make it their whole personality.\r\nIt's a lot of them and that's great, but they still look, they can still experience and get on with people many different types.\r\nBut where I've found it to be a problem is that the person, it's obviously people who have, this is like, well, I was going to say it's like racism.\r\nBut it's not because...\r\nLike you can, I don't think any form of racism can actually have any positivity to it, but some forms of religion, you know, some form of religious belief can.\r\nYeah.\r\nBut, you know, I find that certain people, it's the same thing.\r\nI just cannot understand why, how a person could be a racist, but then also be interested in supporting accessibility.\r\nYeah.\r\nDeveloping accessibility and you know.\r\nLike people contain multitudes and sometimes, sometimes not that that's not the greatest thing, but yeah, I'm right there with you or I'm like, how did you wind up here?\r\nYeah, yeah.\r\nIt was just that I, I made, sorry, I did some social media, but I think it was on LinkedIn and I was talking about AI because we, I've talked to, I haven't talked about AI with you, but I've talked about with other people, but\r\nI did this post and then somebody reposted it with the statement that, I'm sure that they're trying to help us with these tools by creating.\r\nThis is about accessory testing.\r\nAnd to think that somebody is actually, I don't think they're doing it for a good motive.\r\nI don't think companies, companies are doing it for a profit motive, whether they, you know,\r\nIf it can have some, if the product could actually do something that it says it does, then that's a selling point.\r\nIt's not about accessibility or disability, it's about making money.\r\nAnd it doesn't really matter what the product is.\r\nThat's it, whether it's accessibility testing product or whatever it is, it's about what,\r\nWhat is the potential of that product to enrich the shareholders, which is unfortunate?\r\nYeah, I think like, I mean, there's definitely a world where you can have a business that's motivated by profit that puts something out into the world that like genuinely helps.\r\nIt's like, and I know, you know, like when we're in our like, I know it's such a buzzword, but like in shitified, like late capital era where like,\r\nthere is a disconnect between the service you produce and the profit that comes in.\r\nThat's when things get really screwy because like you've basically abandoned the reason you exist in the 1st place.\r\nAnd like we're seeing it all over the board.\r\nI think like the Campbell's soup thing being the most recent example of that, which is like, at the end of the day, you make soup, you probably should care about the people that consume your soup.\r\nAnd Sorry, I'm unaware of what happened with Campbell's soup.\r\nOh, just.\r\nRandom exec went on this like racist, like irate about the people that consumed his product.\r\nAnd it's like, really, you know, talk about biting the hand that feeds you, man.\r\nYeah, exactly.\r\nAnd just, yeah.\r\nAnd it's just because like these concerns are now so abstract that like you forget at the end of the day, like you make soup, people drink, you know, people eat soup.\r\nYeah.\r\nWell, it's just, I mean, the narrative, the\r\nthe so-called Overton window for what's accessible speech has widened massively in the states of late, isn't it?\r\nSo I mean, it's widened here as well, but not to the extent, like it's not actually glorified, you know, we don't have the government putting out ads, you know, sort of glorifying the rounding up of people and the deporting of people illegally and all these sort of things.\r\nWell, I mean, you talk about, you know, you mentioned earlier, like,\r\nwhite dudes and accessibility and like, hi, I'm one of them.\r\nLike, never underestimate the power of as a tall white dude just saying, why would you say something like that?\r\nLike, I've popped that off in real life a few times and like, it stops that shit cold and dead.\r\nYeah.\r\nWell, yeah, I mean, it's, I definitely think that the onus is upon those of us with more privilege to call out that shit.\r\nYeah.\r\nAnd like, obviously.\r\nbe safe about that.\r\nLike don't universally apply to every situation you're in.\r\nLike if you're a dive bar where you don't know anybody versus like maybe on the train.\r\nI mean, I've, you know, talked, I've drank in lots of bars during my life and been there, but I've managed so far not to, I've been in one fight during my adult life and it wasn't really a big fight.\r\nSo yeah, you really, you need to know when to\r\nwhen to hold your words back for sure.\r\nBut in certain circumstances, I think, yeah.\r\nAnd wherever you can make a statement about something to then you should.\r\nYeah.\r\nSo you were talking about your talk and I really enjoyed\r\nyour talk at a11yTO.\r\nIt was definitely the highlight of a11yTO for me, which is surprising because I don't normally sit through a lot, but I sit through the whole of your talk.\r\nI mean, you did mention me, which was nice, but that was a small part of the whole thing.\r\nBut what, and I've said this to other people as well, I think I said it to Crystal, that one of the things that I got from your talk, which I hadn't understood was about burnout and how it can affect people, accessibly people more.\r\nAnd the reason why I hadn't picked it up before was because I've never been in the situation where I've been the only accessibility person in the room or, you know, I've always worked for organizations that help organizations, you know, that provide services.\r\nSo I've always been surrounded by other people that are involved in accessibility.\r\nYeah.\r\nYeah.\r\nAnd like, I mean, like in my current setup, like I have peers that.\r\nYeah.\r\nAnd that's rare.\r\nBut it's also like, you know, just going to the doctor's.\r\nOh, yeah.\r\nYeah.\r\nHope they're.\r\nYeah.\r\nLike I come from.\r\nYeah, I come from a consulting background too.\r\nAnd like, that definitely changes how you interact with folks where like, usually just say, go do this.\r\nAll right, bye.\r\nAnd like, you're too expensive for them to like, ignore you.\r\nYeah.\r\nYeah.\r\nWell, that that is like, you know,\r\nbeing paid for a service is a positive thing because it means that the people that pays see a certain value in what the service you're providing, the information you're providing.\r\nSo I just wanted to thank you for that talk because I really enjoyed it.\r\nThanks for watching.\r\nOne of the things that I came away from that was, well, it's been appreciation of the what burnout can do, but also that I just realized, well, I realized, I see you as a web existentialist.\r\nSo, you know, like you just have that, you know, like\r\nExistential as in Sartre and.\r\nYeah, it's going right on the business card there.\r\nYeah, but you do because it just, because you, that talk that you gave that had a lot of, obviously a lot of thought into it and you, and the sort of references and the sources that you, that were really well thought out as well as it looked good because my presentation is always sort of shit.\r\nSo I appreciated seeing someone that can do it professionally.\r\nBut yeah, it was, as I say, it was honestly, it was, I'm not, no, I've got, I'm going to be speaking to Doug later, but I can't say that he's, I enjoyed seeing Doug because, Doug Schepers, because I just think he's a real character.\r\nAnd also I appreciate the fact that, you know, all the work you do on SVG, but\r\nIt it really made me a bit of a Eric Bailey fan.\r\nOh, buddy.\r\nBig fanny.\r\nBut there's many other questions I could ask you.\r\nBut as as usual, time is was actually we've been going for an hour and a half.\r\nSo I think that's more than enough of definitely more than enough of me, probably enough of you at this point in time.\r\nAnd\r\nIf you're willing, we'll have you back again to talk about something later on if I can.\r\nI've always said, because it just takes such a lot of effort for me to actually do the post-production.\r\nHopefully this will be better.\r\nThat's why I got rid of all that because it was just causing me conniptions.\r\nBut as I said, thank you for talking with me about these various subjects and hopefully\r\nyou had an enjoyable time.\r\nOh my gosh, highlight of my week.\r\nThanks for giving me the chance to, you know.\r\nIt's funny because I think you and I, I don't know, we don't know each other very well.\r\nAnd I think I got to know you a bit better at a11yTO, but I think that both of us had different preconceptions about the other person.\r\nSo\r\nAnd I think that those, you know, through actually talking and it wasn't negative preconceptions, just preconceptions about what who the person is, you know, from limited understanding.\r\nSo I appreciate the opportunity to get to know you a bit better.\r\nSame buddy.\r\nAll right.\r\nWell, I'll yeah, as I said, I'll send you the details of this and you can look at it in your own time and\r\nCome back to me and if you want to cut.\r\nUnfortunately, you can't kind of cut out anything that I say, but it'll just be me.\r\nIf I had my way, it'll just be me.\r\nWell, they cut out your hemorrhoids.\r\nSo like, what else can I cut?\r\nYeah, exactly.\r\nOh, God, yeah.\r\nI don't know how that came.\r\nIt just reminds me.\r\nI had a wonderful time when I lived in.\r\nI lived in Chippendale, this suburb of inner city suburb of Sydney, which, which is where the university was.\r\nYeah.\r\nBut yeah, I had a wonderful time, but that was many, many years ago now.\r\nSo anyway, Eric, thank you again.\r\nAnd what's your dog's name?\r\nChicken.\r\nChicken.\r\nYou want to know her full name?\r\nYeah.\r\nCrispy Chicken Bacon Cheddar Ranch.\r\nYeah.\r\nHow old is she?\r\nShe's like three and change.\r\nThey picked her up on the streets of the city when she was a pup, so we don't know her her actual birthday.\r\nRight.\r\nSo how long ago did you get her?\r\nUh, two years ago.\r\nSo you got her when she was a year and a bit.\r\nCool.\r\nWell, give her a pat and a kiss and a hug from Uncle Steve.\r\nAnd, um, hopefully I'll see you again soon.\r\nYeah.\r\nAll right.\r\nGood to see you, man.\r\nSee ya.\r\n<\/pre>\n<\/details>\n<h2>Further listening<\/h2>\n<h3>Iggy Pop &#8211; Johanna<\/h3>\n<p><iframe loading=\"lazy\" title=\"YouTube video player\" src=\"https:\/\/www.youtube.com\/embed\/wN5CmmaU0s4?si=9ik5V9--zFxL5aYB\" width=\"560\" height=\"315\" frameborder=\"0\" allowfullscreen=\"allowfullscreen\"><\/iframe><\/p>\n<details>\n<summary>Lyrics<\/summary>\n<pre>verse:\r\nOh, yeah\r\nOh, yeah\r\nOh, yeah\r\nI\u2032ve been a dreamer,\r\nI've been a dreamer,\r\nBeen a dreamer for a long lost love\r\nJohanna, Johanna,\r\nI hate you baby, \u2032cause you're the one I love\r\nI been a mean one,\r\nI been unclean,\r\nI been a bitch, and I know it too\r\nJohanna, Johanna,\r\nI hate to say it, but I'm coming back to you\r\n\r\nchorus:\r\nScreaming murder,\r\nScreaming murder,\r\nBloody murder all in my brain\r\nJohanna, Johanna,\r\nI hate you baby, \u2032cause you\u2032re the one I love\r\nLove!\r\nLove!\r\n\r\n<\/pre>\n<\/details>\n","protected":false},"excerpt":{"rendered":"<p>Eric and I have crossed paths in the past, he is a thinker and prodigious developer\/advocate of accessibility practice and disability rights. I had the honour of spending an hour with him recently talking about disability, accessibility, politics, depression and religion amongst other things. Transcript Could be a pair of David Swallow underpants. Oh, yeah. [&hellip;]<\/p>\n","protected":false},"author":1,"featured_media":0,"comment_status":"open","ping_status":"open","sticky":false,"template":"","format":"standard","meta":{"footnotes":""},"categories":[1],"tags":[],"class_list":["post-1849","post","type-post","status-publish","format-standard","hentry","category-htmlaccessibility"],"_links":{"self":[{"href":"https:\/\/html5accessibility.com\/stuff\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/posts\/1849","targetHints":{"allow":["GET"]}}],"collection":[{"href":"https:\/\/html5accessibility.com\/stuff\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/posts"}],"about":[{"href":"https:\/\/html5accessibility.com\/stuff\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/types\/post"}],"author":[{"embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/html5accessibility.com\/stuff\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/users\/1"}],"replies":[{"embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/html5accessibility.com\/stuff\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/comments?post=1849"}],"version-history":[{"count":7,"href":"https:\/\/html5accessibility.com\/stuff\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/posts\/1849\/revisions"}],"predecessor-version":[{"id":1857,"href":"https:\/\/html5accessibility.com\/stuff\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/posts\/1849\/revisions\/1857"}],"wp:attachment":[{"href":"https:\/\/html5accessibility.com\/stuff\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/media?parent=1849"}],"wp:term":[{"taxonomy":"category","embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/html5accessibility.com\/stuff\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/categories?post=1849"},{"taxonomy":"post_tag","embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/html5accessibility.com\/stuff\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/tags?post=1849"}],"curies":[{"name":"wp","href":"https:\/\/api.w.org\/{rel}","templated":true}]}}