Crystal Preston Watson – Fireside Chat 25th November 2025

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say it.

I just keep saying it so that way I know.

There was this guy that, I mean, I live in a block of flats close to Kingston Town, but there's this guy that lives across the road and I'd say hello to him and he'd say hello to me.

He'd always say my name and I'd forgotten what his name was.

It'd been going on for years.

And I was asking people around local neighbors, nobody knew.

But

Eventually I I he he pigeonholed me about something, and I just had to ask him.

I said, you know, what is your name?

I totally forgot.

Anyway.

this is I mean, technically, I have 2 legal names.

So Crystal Preston and Crystal Preston Watson.

It just depends if it's the

the state of Colorado or the IRS that I'm talking to.

It's a whole complicated thing.

And it matters for some reason, like one wants one name one way, the other wants to up the name the other.

Gotcha.

Gotcha.

It's a fine name.

The fact that your second name is Watson like Leonie, my co-director at TetraLogical and friend,  ,

I get a bit of cognitive dissonance when I say the last bit, but that's just me.

Now, Fireside Chat is sponsored by HTML Z, which is my T-shirt arm of my vast enterprises.

And if you use the code 
PIGGYTRUMP, you'll get 20% off.

So, okay, so now, oh, wait.

Can you see the.

Yes.

Excellent.

Excellent.

So, well, you'll definitely recognize yourself.

Yes, I do.

I'm really worried that I'm not going to be able to be able to see it.

Oh, I have a shoulder.

No, that works.

Where are you though?

That's the thing.

Don't worry.

I'm just a voice.

Yeah, I know, but you shouldn't be just a voice.

You should be a physical presence on the screen as well.

I know what's going on.

I mean, if I have nothing but time, like if you want to, you know,

do a rain check for another time.

No, I mean, okay.

No, so you can figure it out.

Again, I don't have a job anymore.

We can talk about work.

Among the millions of Americans not employed at the moment.

Yeah, what happened?

Where were you working and or?

So right now, I'm just doing a lot of side projects and then trying to find a new position.

But I was with Salesforce previously, and it was all in the news.

But back in September, they let go like 4,000 people.

Wow.

And pretty much the CEO said it was because of AI.

Yeah, so that was kind of, it was awkward because there was just not a way.

For me, there's, you know, and honestly, for a lot of, AI can't replace.

people like and then and so that was just really awkward to be like, yeah, like, you know, you get laid off and then you watch CNBC and they're like, yeah, you've like all these people are laid off because AI took their job.

And I was like, well, that was news to me because I was doing my job until the to the day they told me I they were getting rid of my getting rid of my job.

Yeah, I mean,

I mean, the idea that they could take some, they could replace Sentim being that knows their shit, so to speak, with some, Mechanical Turk is just, it just, yeah, it's just off to me.

It really is.

I'm like, I'll try to because I'm like, oh, that always sends me into a spiel about it.

Yeah.

I can understand.

That's better, I think.

I don't know.

My screen.

Oh, yes, look.

Now I can see, is it recording my screen though?

I don't know.

Yeah, so we're up to two screens on.

Can you see my screen?

Yes, I can see, I can see you and then I can see a screen with a bunch of accessibility people.

Yeah, yeah.

So yeah, okay, so we've done that, the first bit, let's do,

Let's get into the meat of it.

Yeah.

Now, where am I?

Oh, there.

Yeah, it took me about 6 hours last time to do all the post video editing.

And I've got an appreciation for how difficult it was.

Not difficult, but it is fairly time consuming to create the captions for something.

But even if she wasn't too bad because I put the video up onto YouTube.

No, actually, I used something that was a clip champ or something from that comes with Windows and that created auto generated

Captions, yeah.

Yeah, captions.

I can't remember what format.

But anyway, I then uploaded that to Youtube, but then I edited them in real time.

And so it actually wasn't too bad.

I'm sure that if I got, well, hopefully this time it's going to be easier.

Now.

That's what I do when I edit videos.

Like I use auto

I'll let, I'll use, I'll grab the auto captions and then I'll go in and edit.

And like that's pretty much the best use for auto captions is to get you a head start.

But and then you can go.

Yeah.

Then you go in and edit them.

Okay.

So now you should be able to see.

Yes.

Yes.

So, can you name some of these people?

You don't win anything or anything.

It's not, it's not like a competition.

It's just.

I, that's the thing, like, I, it's like, I, you know, it's like,

I can, it's like.

I can tell you.

I recognize people, but then I not everybody's name.

I know it's there's Laney.

Yeah, Laney's there.

Yeah, and Natalie and Homer.

And then.

I'm going to have some problems.

So top left is David Swallow first.

off the road.

Dave, a good friend of mine.

And then this drawing of, I don't know who did it, but Haydon Pickering uses it as, has used it as

an avatar, but it always reminds me of Frank Zappa.

I'm a Zappa fan.

So I like that picture.

And then there's Pat.

Now, Pat, I don't know what he's got.

I think he had a headache or something.

It's either that or he's going for gray beany day.

He's a one person, you know, sort of protest for blue beany day.

Then there's

God.

See, now I'm going to Lucy Greco.

Yeah.

And then there's Cynthia Shelly, who I'm talking to later this week.

Why is this showing?

Why is it showing it like that?

Anyway, no.

Side by side.

Yes.

Okay, then there's Billy Gregory, who I used to work with and is working at Ubisoft or something.

Is that the Pope?

Yes.

And there's a reason why this is here.

I'll tell you why.

Because this Pope, my old friend and mentor, Mike Paciello,

is related to this Pope in some way because he's Italian background.

And when I saw it, I thought, God, that looks like Mike.

So that's why I like it.

Yeah, he's from, he's originally from Chicago.

he was born in Chicago.

He ended up moving like, I guess, once he got into the church, but he was born in Chicago and his brother still lives in Chicago.

Is that the current Pope or?

Yep, the current Pope.

Yeah, so this is the current Pope.

Oh, this is the current Pope.

No, this is some Pope from the past.

I'm sorry, I'm not Catholic, so I didn't.

I wasn't keeping up on new popes.

Yeah, no, nor do I.

It's just because mike was related to this guy somehow.

And also just, and it reminds me of him.

But moving swiftly on, next up we have

Do you know who this is, this picture?

Scott?

Scott O'Hara, yes.

I recognize the illustration.

Yeah.

The only time I've seen him smiling, but I used to again, I used to work with Scott.

I've never seen the in real life version of it, only that drawing.

Well, I've got some pictures I'll show you later.

Because we went to a CSUN about five years ago and there's pictures and also we went to, we used to have these at TPG, we used to have these meetups like, you know, face to face, but I was obviously here in various places.

One of them was, I don't know if Scott was there, but it was Orlando, Toronto.

And we used to meet up because we're all

everybody that worked there was remote.

So much the same as tetralogical.

So, you know, it was nice to actually get to meet people in real life.

I'm surprised I haven't run into you actually.

I, yeah, like I, so,

For right when I started to like get opportunities like to travel and could travel like one COVID, you know, the lockdown happened with COVID.

And then, yeah, like I had like health issues for so what like so I had like major surgery last year like that that took care of those.

But before then I was

in pretty rough shape.

So traveling was really, really hard for me to do.

So and so I hope to do to go to more conferences coming up, especially this next coming year.

Yeah, well, I mean, I went to a11yTO this year and CSUN, but I won't be going back to CSUN until

There's regime changes.

I just don't feel safe going there.

I want to go to Accessibility TO because I used to live in Toronto.

So I just want to go back to like, but that was before I got involved in accessibility.

So it would be nice to go back to visit and attend.

I love Toronto.

I think it's a great place.

It is.

a11yTO is a pretty good conference.

I saw Eric Bailey.

talk, he was the highlight for me from this last conference.

But anyway, so then Lainey, who

And do you have do you have a chapter in the book?

Yes, I'm the I'm the very first chapter.

Excellent.

Yeah.

We can talk about that.

Yeah, we'll talk about.

I'll ask a question about that.

I just want to get through this because otherwise it'll be the whole thing.

Natalie Patrice.

Yes, I yep.

I've actually met her years ago at CSUN a couple of times.

I think when it was when CSUN was down in San Diego, it was really good, good vibe down there and I hung out with her and some of her friends.

Okay, so it's Natalie and she's she's going to be interviewed on this podcast as well at some point.

The person on the bottom left, you may not know, but he's a guy called Mike Smith from the W3C.

It's a good friend of mine.

And he is the person that, well, he's done a lot of things.

I've got to know him through the HTML development stuff,  the specification editing.

But also he looks after the W3C validator.

He does all the code and maintenance for that.

He lives in Japan.

And he asked me to do a make a sticker for him, which I did, which is the DEI Harder sticker.

He's also got a dog on it because he uses the name Sideshow Barker a lot.

And I think that's got something to do with it.

That's awesome.

And then this homer Gaines, who I met.

at a11yTO.

Do you know the person next to them?

No, I don't.

Matthew Atkinson.

Matthew's an awesome character.

He is the co-chair of the Accessible Platform Architecture Group at the W3C.

And along with Janina Sajka, who's a mighty

beacon in the world of accessibility.

But Matthew and I used to work together.

He's currently, I think he's a standards leader at Samsung or something like that.

But as well as that within the W3Cs, he's in the,

He got voted onto the technical architecture group.

He's a real nerd and he's a nice guy as well.

He's he lives like, well, locally.

He actually does.

I think he moved somewhere in Twickenham.

I live in Kingston upon Thames, which is a suburb of London.

He lives in another suburb.

And then, of course, there's you.

And then there's Zoe.

Zoe B Beal.

I think I've said that right? again, used to work with her.

She she's involved in the ARIA
stuff and various things that W3C.

So anyway, you can choose anyone.

And from there you will you will get a subject

we can talk about.

And as I said to Pat last week, we could do as many or as a few of these as you like.

So it's just, you know, can we keep, you know, can we keep going?

If it seems like we can't, then it's time to, yeah.

So make your first choice.

I'll choose Laney.

Laney.

Okay.

Oh, no, no.

You see, the whole thing is not working.

No, no.

Oh, no, no.

Let me see everything.

Okay.

Yeah.

AI.

Well, I had it.

It was working fine.

I don't know what I'm doing.

I will.

I will act like I haven't seen anything.

Okay, so under Lainey is AI.

So you just said you were talking about that before.

And oh, yeah, it does work.

I don't know when I when I present it, I just can't see anything else except the screen.

But soon as I come away that I should be able to have it presenting there.

But anyway,

I was going to say, why there's two of me?

I mean, one of me is too much.

Anyway, I'm sorry.

As you can see, this is total professionalism here.

So AI, you got made redundant through AI or through the excuse of AI.

Do you

use AI yourself for anything?

I, I, so partially I do.

So when it comes to like Grammarly, they, they incorporate AI and I'm someone that I've been using Grammarly for a while because my grammar is atrocious.

So I need that help.

So, and I've, you know, continued to use it and I know that they use AI within that platform.

Also when it comes to

Be My Eyes, they have the Be My AI.

And I do use that because sometimes I actually, I do need that.

So I am someone who like, I have a complicated relationship with AI because one, I feel like everything is just being said, is being called AI and it's not all AI.

And then some AI is, you know, we've been using for a while and it

is not as harmful as, say, generative AI.

And it's getting caught up into the conflict that everyone has with AI.

And pretty much everyone who's like, I hate AI, I can't stand it, is talking about generative AI and large language models.

And so I definitely do.

And I have actually-- I've been looking into

two large language models and I haven't generated like images, but I've been playing around with ChatGPT and things like that, just kind of seeing what they're about.

I'm someone who likes to, you know, when I'm skeptical about something or I'm criticizing something and guess what?

My delivery is just here, so I'm going to take this off and I'll be right back.

Okay, I'll just pause it.

Yeah, I mean, I use AI myself, but I don't use it to do any testing of accessibility because I just don't think it's good.

But yeah, I mean, I do like it for doing stuff like using it as a like a complex image that I can't describe or, you know, I get

I use it to provide some pros and then I sort of, you know.

Yeah, it's a prompt generate like, yeah.

And I think for stuff like that, I think it's perfect for like I, when I'm, when I say I'm like critical or skeptical about AI, like my thing is just that there are, you know, we are, they,

a lot of people were throwing AI at every single thing that it needs not to be involved in.

Like, you know, when it comes to accessibility, yeah, like saying that AI can, you know, test for accessibility for, you know, for, and it's just like, how and why, you know, I, I, I've had people say that and I was like,

How, you know, explain to me how do you think that's going to work?

You know, especially when we talk about like the data sets it's trained on, the fact that, you know, a lot of the information out there about disability on the internet is either incorrect, biased, or, you know, or isn't out there.

So how can you...

have a, this large language model or any sort of like AI trained on, the vast, knowledge of the, of the internet.

test for something that may not be-- I just don't think it has the capacity.

AI has its uses.

Yeah, a prompt is great.

Spelling and helping me with my grammar is great.

Even some of the co-pilots-- I've been looking into GitHub copilot.

Some kind of helping to start off projects.

I think it has really good uses there, but I think it gets, what is happening now, everyone's talking like, okay, you know, here's a good start, but they're trying to make that it can take things to the very end, that it can replace everyone in a, yeah.

And it's just like, no, it cannot.

And, you know, I think a lot of people are like, well, why is, you know,

I think people who are really champion AI are doing themselves a disservice by trying to fit AI into everything because they're kind of causing the backlash like of, you know, when someone, you know, sees AI, you know, I think a lot we're, you know, putting AI for a lot of agents, customer service agents.

And, you know, it's- Yeah.

And a lot of people are finding...

that they don't like it it's not helping and so a lot of people now when they come and you know they they're calling a you know company to you know for an issue of something and they realize they're being um you know they're talking to an AI they'll immediately start saying human human to try to get to a human as fast as possible and you

You know, it's one of those things of, yeah.

And what could happen if you using AI in a smart way is maybe have an AI in the beginning answer a call or a chat and then quickly be like, is this an issue that you think

a human would be best to solve.

Because if you could use, that's a smart way to do it.

Because some people would be like, yes, a human's going to be, I need a human.

But there are a lot of people who are going to be like, no, I know what I need to do is simple.

And they'll choose to use AI.

But when you force people to do things, that's where the trouble begins and you get a lot of pushback.

So I have a lot of thoughts on AI.

Yeah, yeah, I've got a lot of thoughts.

As I said, I mean, I'm used to, but I agree with you that in order to be able to have some critical or critically analyze something, you need to, you need to use it.

And that's what I've been doing.

And I've been venting my frustration and writing my thoughts on the flakiness of certain products.

It's not even the AI, it's the

user interfaces that are created by the companies, you know, it's just, yeah, I mean, if anything, I think that I don't, I see more work and more opportunities coming out of this for people such as you and I in order to provide expertise.

Not that I'm an expert, but.

I mean, I mean, it's emergent technology, so none of us are really, you can say we're experts.

And so, but we, know accessibility and, so, definitely.

And a lot of these, a lot of these, AI platforms, they, the accessibility of them is.

Yeah, it's absolute shit.

Yeah, no, it's absolute shit.

Like, and, you know, and, and that's the thing where it's like, well, this can help people with disabilities.

And it's like, well, how can it when it's not accessible?

You're pushing this.

So it's like, you can't have it both ways.

There's lots of ethical consideration, that being one of them, but also that.

On the flip side, it does seem really useful for people with disabilities to do things independently.

So then there's, but you have the other ethical issues in the background, the plagiarism, the use of

Massive amounts of power, and just a general, skullduggery, skullfuckery of the individuals involved, the organizations, I mean, yeah, that's sad moment and all those sort of people, they just creep me out.

Anyway, yeah, the ethical...

Like, yeah, you can't lessen those.

Like, and that's when it comes to like sustainability and water consumption and power consumption, that is something that, you know, has to be dealt with because right now, you know, in the United States where they're building more of these like data centers and they're building them in neighborhoods that are, you know, lower income and people don't have the right, you know, they're, you know, because

inconvenience people that, you know, who don't have the power to say no, not in our neighborhood.

And we don't know, like, what is, you know, the pollution output of a lot of these of these centers, you know, we can probably guess from other, you know, types of things, but,

You know, in the past it does, you know, a lot of these data centers weren't really built in like, you know, neighborhoods with a lot of population, but now because of the demand they are.

And so we do not even remotely know the environmental and the health impact that is gonna come about putting these data centers that are taking up so much, you know, you know, that's generating, you know, all this, you know, power for these, you know, for these,

you know, large, you know, these models and these AI platforms and what it's going to do to, you know, future generations.

And yeah, yeah, sure.

Okay, so we'll leave AI aside now.

Now I'm going to intend to go back to I'll just go to so you can just see the what.

Yeah.

Yeah.

So just choose one and then I'll tell you what.

I didn't, yeah.

So I didn't see the one under Homer.

So I'll go, I'll pick Homer just because I didn't, I didn't see that one.

So this will be a surprise.

I think under Homer, it's Hobby.

Hobby.

Hobby.

So what hobbies do you have?

That's the nice friendly.

So I think my biggest comedy, especially right now, I do improv comedy.

Yeah, I was reading about that.

I wanted to.

So tell us about that.

Yeah, so I've been doing improv since

wow, like 2011.

Actually, yeah, 2011, 2010.

Actually, I started in Toronto.

When I was living in Toronto, I used to pass by Second City, you know, to and from work.

And one day I realized that all I was doing was working and I was just like, I needed an outlet.

My mental health wasn't great because all I would go, I would go to work, I would go to sleep, and I would do it all again.

And so

One day, I ended up getting off the streetcar.

And I just went in, and I asked about classes.

And I ended up signing up.

And from there, I just loved it.

I had already loved improv comedy anyway, because funny enough, I have a Kids in the Hall shirt on, because I used to love watching Kids in the Hall.

you know, and they're actually, and they're from, they're a sketch comedy, you know, like team from, from Toronto, you know, Mr.

Show, which has like, you know, Bob Odenkirk and David Cross, like, and that's sketch comedy, but they also have like improv roots as well.

So I've always loved comedy.

So it just kind of made sense that I would get into it.

And so now, yeah, I've, I took a little break because of,

of the pandemic and health, but now I'm getting back into it.

I actually was in a show.

It was Batman.

It was called Batman Live, and it was a half improv, half sketch, scripted show about.

based on the 1989 Batman.

So I played the mayor and that just ended its run.

And then I'm doing another show.

We did it Saturday and then we have an upcoming show this next Saturday called STEMprov.

And we use, and it's just pretty much improv based on like the STEM fields.

And I created an app and it lets the audience interact with the performers on stage.

So just wanted back to what based on what was it?

STEM?

STEM.

Yes.

Like, so science, technology, engineering and math.

Oh, STEM.

Yeah, STEM.

Yeah, sorry.

Oh, no, no, I kind of rattled it off real quickly.

But yeah, it's yes, STEM Prov because it was just...

That sounds cool.

Yeah, like I, you know, because I love, you know, I love tech and I really love Colony and I just kind of wanted to do something

that would mix the two.

And then it allowed me to kind of, you know, create like different, you know, just like different, you know, play around with different tech.

This past show, we actually, we actually had a robot performer.

Like, so the robot, the audience would submit suggestions and then the robot would, you know, give us those suggestions while we were on stage.

So, you know, every so often it would stop us and be like, Hey, you got to do this or this action or this game.

And it was really cool.

This next show, we won't have a robot, but funny enough, I

just, I created a website where people can submit and using my screen reader on my computer, it will announce to the audience like different things because I, you know, it's like, it's a little bit of a hack of like, I was like, how can I create this and get set, you know, and have it announced, you know, audible to the audience?

So I was like, oh, I'll just use, I'll just use my screen reader.

And so I,

abused-- I'm sorry to say, I abused ARIA.

So I have ARIA alerts to announce the suggestions.

That's cool.

But yeah, so that's my hobby.

Other than that, video games, like when I can.

That's why I'm always like,

you know, really happy about, you know, the push for making the game video games accessible because.

Yeah.

Yeah.

'Cause I, you know, there's some games that I, you know, sadly, you know, when they, you know, like older games where I can't, you know, now I can't really play them because they don't have, you know, accessible like settings.

What do you say?

Can I ask you what accommodations do you like or require in games or whatever in general?

So when I'm playing like, you know, like, so I don't usually play like online with other people, but I do play like my favorite, kind of my favorite, favorite, favorite is Hitman.

And so with that, you have, you need, I need like having like gate,

aim assist, because it's really hard for me to, you know, especially if there's a target far away, I can't see, you know, like, and this is not just me, you know, being far, like if I get up close to the, you know, to the TV screen, which I've done before, and I still can't do it, where I would have to have a friend do certain parts for me, because there was just no way for me to do it.

So things like that, you know, being able to do, you know, high

contrast mode, being able to change, you know, like the size of dialogue where I have to, you know, I have to have it extra large so I can, you know, see it and things like that.

So all those things really, really make a difference.

And they really do enhance, you know, like, they're not just like, it doesn't give, you know, where some people like, it's giving you an advantage.

No, it's just giving me up to the baseline of everywhere, everyone, you know, like other people who don't have to have those.

Yeah, exactly.

I mean, the idea of the game is to enjoy, spend a couple of hours or however much time enjoying the interaction.

Exactly.

Yeah, who cares?

It's an advantage.

For me, like for me, especially because I don't play with it, it's like I can't, I can't play, I can't go into those lobbies because just like I would just be mad all the time.

So for me, it's like, I don't really, like, you know, it's like, I, you know, I play the way I want to play because it's just me and I'm, you know, I just want to enjoy my time that I have while I'm playing the game.

So what games would

would you give a shout out for their accessibility?

Oh, wow.

Like Forza, like the Forza series, they've done a really, especially when it comes to the deaf and hard of hearing, they've had, they've done some really, really, really good like accessibility, like

settings, like you can actually have sign language in the game.

Like they, yeah, and they've done some really like, just that, like I, you know, and like, I, I'm not the greatest at driving games, but I've really, really enjoyed that.

Not just not even like, not even just for that, but like, it just felt a lot more, you know, welcoming, just, you know, like, hey, you, you know, access it, you know, it wasn't like,

and accessibility was hidden in some random, menu down the line.

So that's definitely one.

I mean, honestly.

I don't want to put you on the spot.

Yeah.

What I do want to know more about is CrystalCon.

Oh, yes.

So that is-- I saw that you signed up for an update.

It's so funny.

I haven't even finished the-- well, I'm almost finished with the website.

So I'm glad that that actually is working because I was fearing the sign up for the updates wasn't working.

Well, it works.

So I did notice it said 2025 against it, which is actually 2026.

Yeah, so I have to update that, but pretty much I did this

back in 2023.

Yeah, I remember.

And it's mainly just because I have a lot of ideas for for talks and presentations that honestly don't have a lot of times they may not fit into different, you know, conferences.

So I'm like, I still want to, you know, I want to put these on and I want to share them.

So that's how it was born.

And then this, so in 20, you know, not this year, but in January, I'm going to have it again.

It's most

mostly focused on AI, because I think, honestly, it's really that's really hard to get away from in tech and in digital accessibility.

So and that's what a lot of my kind of playing around with different AI platforms has been is kind of looking, you know, into that.

And so a lot of my thoughts, I'm, you know, I have a couple kind of really cool like sessions that, you know, I'm kind of I'm

I'm going to present from things I've done with like, you know, chat.

So I've ChatGPT and Google
Gemini, you know, GitHub.

How long are you're planning Crystal Con to be?

Oh, so it's just two days and it's just three- Just two days.

Yes, two days and three sessions each day.

So it's six sessions overall.

So yeah, like I, you know, I'm in the middle of like starting to film them all now to be kind of, so I can next month edit, you know, focus on editing them and then

January 21st and 22nd is when I will put them all on YouTube for people too.

Yeah.

I look forward to it.

Yes.

And so there's Crystal Con and then there's the chapter in the book.

Tell me about the book.

Because suddenly I've seen the pre-order and then suddenly there's all these people that I know or know of that I've written chapters for it.

Yes.

So, yeah, it's, you know, Digital Accessibility Ethics.

It comes out next year, March 26 is the current publication date.

And, you know, it really is, you know, kind of giving a framework for, you know, for digital accessibility ethics.

And so, yeah, there's been, like, there's 36 different, like, authors and, like,

that have contributed to the book.

I contributed the second chapter after the editors, Laney, Chelsea, and Reginae.

And so my chapter is just kind of a introduction to just giving people terms about like, you know, what is it meant when you say disability, what is, you know, the different categories of disabilities, kind of getting people just kind of a baseline understanding

understanding of what disability may mean.

And in there, I really kind of talk about there is no hard one particular definition and try to expand on that.

And then also kind of a very high level overview of digital accessibility.

So that way, as they go deeper into the chapters, they have that kind of fundamental knowledge.

so that's my chapter.

I was really, I was really excited to add that, and then, when I saw, and all these, great people that were a part of it, I was just like, Yes, I definitely want to.

I mean, Adrian's one.

I mean, it's funny because he's probably the most...

Immoral person I know.

And somehow, no, that's not true.

He's very uptight, but, and he's very, yeah, he's very right on his, yeah.

So the term woke is, yeah, perfect.

No, no.

Truthfully, that I'll be, yeah, I'll be interested to read it.

whether I actually do read it or not, because I'm not, I haven't picked up a book in years.

I read a lot, but it's all online and specs and things like that.

So.

I mean, you're not alone.

There's, I,

I've made it a mission to start to read more books because for, you know, as much as like, and when I say read more books, like when I can, the physical books, but I also do audio books as well, just because, yeah, I've, it's really hard nowadays because like, it's, you're just, you know, everything is being, you know,

online first, internet first.

And so it is a lot of times hard to, one, find things that you really want to read that, you know, that is new, that you will, you know, actually publish an actual book versus just putting online.

So I definitely, when people say that, I get it because as someone who would, you know, I was, you know, I was a huge bookworm as a kid, I started to, you know, I read a lot less.

than I used to.

Yeah, well, I mean, I used to be an avid reader.

I used to love, you know, a lot of fiction, but I haven't read a fiction book in 20 years, but I did.

Well,

What I started to do was buy physical copies of the books that I've read that I've forgotten about, which I, you know, anything past yesterday, I've basically forgotten about.

And so, but it's getting back in the habit of sitting there with a book is difficult because I spend so much time in front of the screen every day.

Yeah, like for me, it feels like, well, I should be

doing, I should be more weird with like, I should be more productive.

Like if you're not, like, even though a lot of times when you're in front of the screen, you're not really being productive, but it seems like, you know, it may, it gives the kind of illusion that maybe, you know, like you are being productive, but when you're just sitting with like a physical book or a magazine, it's like, well, you're, you know, you're taking, you know, it's like, oh, you're not, you could be doing something way more productive than this, which is such

a weird way, like, you know, kind of current society as, you know, is, you know, has kind of makes you feel.

I must admit, I watch a lot of telly though.

So, you know, when I'm not, it's my pastime walking the dog doing this stuff and watching, watching telly.

So I've seen some good shows and I've

of like so I'm watching one called Community at the moment.

Oh yes, I like I love like Community is awesome.

Like I watched it when it first was like I haven't rewatched it but yeah.

this is the first time I ever watched her.

Like my I watch it with my younger daughter.

She really likes Rick and Morty and Dan Harmon, who, yeah, he's the creator of Community.

But she was saying that something about like Chevy Chase plays a sort of

Yeah, misogynist asshole, really.

Well, yeah, and from what I've heard, Chevy Chase is just playing Chevy Chase.

Yes, that's what, yeah, that's what I thought.

Yeah.

I heard that he's actually, you know, like as well as acting inappropriately in his character, I heard that on set he's also acting inappropriately.

So, speaking of that, I shouldn't laugh about, but you know, yeah.

Well, speaking about books, there's this book was about the first like 25 years of Saturday Night Live.

And they and they talk a lot about Chevy Chase behind the scenes.

And yeah, that's pretty much like there's I think there's a story about I think was it Bill Murray like punched Chevy Chase?

Like there's there is just a lot of like behind the scenes stuff.

But yeah, from that book, there is a lot

Like, a lot of people did not like, like Chevy Chase.

And that was pretty much what you see on community is pretty much close to how he is in real life.

Well, yeah, that's concerning.

Okay, so moving swiftly on again, choose another avatar.

I'll choose another picture and we'll see what's below.

I'll tell you.

I will choose Billy.

Billy Gregory.

Okay, now let me find it.

Billy Gregory, behind Billy Gregory's burnout.

Yeah, so well, no, it's not.

I'm not saying that he's burnt out, but well, who knows?

Now I'm trying to get back to

It's just annoying the hell out of me.

It's getting worse.

It's getting worse.

Okay, we're back.

So now we got burnout.

The reason why I put this as a subject was that there's I have seen and heard a lot about people talking about burnout.

And

in various presentations and conferences and things and usually I tune out.

But the last time when I saw Eric Bailey speak at a11yTO, one of the things he just talked about, human frailty, he what I realized, well, I had this obviously about Eric Bailey, that he was he's a he's a web.

Oh, I can't even remember the word ... my brain.

He's a, um, it's like, uh, he's a web existentialist.

That's what he is.

He's a digital existentialist because he's just full of, of, uh, of, uh, emotion.

But anyway, he, he talked about, um, talked about, uh,

burnout.

And he was talking about how it, like I believe that burnout exists.

I think that I've had burnout in various situations, but not related, well, somewhat related to my job, but not due to my actual workday.

It was being involved in the development of HTML5 that I think

Because after that, for about three or four years, I just avoided web standards altogether.

Well, I didn't, but I just didn't interact.

And now in the last couple of years, I've gone back into interacting again.

But anyway, the point what I was trying to make was that what I got from his talk, which I hadn't clearly understood, was that mainly because I've never been in the situation, but being and my

co-director at TetraLogical, Henny has talked about this being the only accessibility specialist in the room.

I've never been that.

I've always worked, you know, for, had the luxury of working for an organization full of accessibility people.

But I imagine that what I got from what he said was that being the, you know,

be that one person in the organization or small team or whatever, that you've got to be in it, you know, you've got to cover every base.

And yeah, and that can that could be really could be, you know, could drain you drain your

resources drain your will to live even.

I mean, I mean, yes.

And that's, and I think it's also, it's that exactly what Eric hit on.

And also I think is the Americanness of it as well.

Because, you know, given it's, you know, we gotta, you gotta work to get to have insurance even with, you know, and so that is something, you know,

given that a lot of a lot of people who are in who do accessibility work have disabilities.

So you're, you know, you have that kind of that stressor as well.

So you're the only person that, you know, is doing accessibility.

You have you're dealing with a lot of times companies that are, you know, they're they're they're

They're doing it because they're like, well, maybe our competitor is doing it, so we just copy our competitor, or there's a lawsuit was threatened or something like that.

But as soon as they can cut, they start cutting positions out, accessibility is one of those first ones for a lot of these companies that will go.

And so...

Yeah, that really brings on a lot of burnout.

I came from, you know, when I start, I didn't start out and doing accessibility work.

I was first in tech.

I actually, I come from a journalism background.

Yeah, I was reading about that, yeah.

Yeah, and so I came from, the paper I worked at closed after 149 years, and so then I,

went into web development, and I was first a front-end developer, and then I did the opposite of what people usually do.

I went from front-end development into quality assurance, and then quality assurance is one of those areas like accessibility is that companies, when they want to cut something out, QA is one of the very first things that they look to cut out, and so there's a lot of burnout

QA so I was prepared for the burnout before I got to accessibility doesn't mean I you know I haven't suffered from burnout because I definitely do.

But yeah, it's the combination of being like, yeah, if you wanna actually have insurance and things like that, for a while I was working for myself, but then back in 2013, I realized, yeah, I can't afford, I got a quote from my insurance that was

$1,700 a month.

And so I was like, there's no way I can afford $1,700 a month.

So I went back to working for companies.

And that's one of the things.

It's all that kind of burden.

And then yeah, trying to take on the burden of all this stuff.

Like that's kind of what really leads to it.

I've been, you know, I I've been meeting with people just kind of like every week talking about accessibility.

And one of the things that you know some people have talked about is burning out, and I've been upfront.

It's like

You know, accessibility is, it's a noble work, like work, but you can't let yourself, you can't, you know, that adage of you can't set yourself on fire to keep other people warm.

At the end of the day, you can't, you know, even though you may want to do this, you know, this work, you gotta look out for yourself.

You gotta look out for yourself.

Yeah, like I, you know, and that's the thing I tell myself, you know, the day where I feel like

I, you know, it's, I, you know, I feel like I'm just really, really hard, like, you know, mentally harming myself of trying to do this.

And yeah, like I will have to give this, you know, this, this work up.

I don't want to, but it's unfortunately, that is something and, and I feel, you know, that that is a kind of American thing that we, yeah.

I mean, I worked for an American company for 18 years, but I never worked in the States.

I worked remotely.

And I was always in a country that had universal health care.

And also, we had a reasonable amount of holidays.

the statutory minimum is 4 weeks in the UK.

So it was different.

It was so I've been lucky and privileged that, my whole work life, I went from TPGI to TetraLogical.

And, I didn't have to worry about finding another job because it was,

know, was a plan that I had to move on at some point.

So I've been very lucky.

So and what going back to my original point was that what I understood from Eric's talk that I hadn't previously understood is that accessibility is a hard job to be involved in, in a lot of senses.

But I mean, you know, you're talking about the

Talking about having to work to have health care.

I mean, that's just mad.

I mean, I don't know if you are aware, but my old friend, my old friend and mentor, Mike Paciello, started to work at AudioEye, which is all like, you know, anathema, the evil, you know.

I, it's not somewhere that I would work myself, like, but I wouldn't work for DQ or either or level access, but I wouldn't say to anybody, like, if somebody got a job, you know, I'd go, good on you, know, you need to work.

Especially if you need, you know, there's basic,

You need to clothe and have, a roof over your head.

And in the States, you need health care as well.

I mean, I can't fault somebody for that.

But I mean, in mike's defense as well, I will say that he actually thinks or thought he's, I'm going to interview him at some point.

But he did think that he

He went into it thinking you could do some good.

So, and that's one thing about Mike Paciello that I've always admired is his integrity.

And so, you know, I trust him.

As I say, it's not something I do myself, but.

Yeah, I mean, no, I absolutely agree.

Like, you know, like right now, like I, you know, I, there's so many people, you know,

that, yeah, you need to keep a roof over your head.

Yeah, you need healthcare.

I mean, I had surgery last year.

That surgery cost with, I saw all the bills and I had, I was working for a company, it was a hundred thousand dollars.

And that was a dis, like, that was a hundred thousand dollars.

I, because I had health care through my company, but in also really good health care, I paid, you know, and I know this might still be a lot for you.

I only paid like 3,000 out of pocket.

Yeah.

And the thing is, that, and it was really, and the thing is, that, I mean, there's so many people.

So when I see people are like, I have to take a job and maybe it's not like the place or some people, are like, why are you still working for this company?

Because, they've done this and this.

And it's like, well,

Are you going to pay their bills?

Some people, they don't have that choice.

And you can say-- you can be outside looking in saying, well, you don't have any ethics and morals and values and stuff, but it's really hard when you have family and you got to do this and stuff.

So I'm not that person who will-- I'm not going to demonize anybody unless they're actively doing something, and then maybe.

I mean, I mean, the thing with Mike was complicated because he, because Adrian was sued by the company, and so he just made things, all a bit.

Yeah, awkward.

But still, I mean, I can understand, like, when I see Mike, I always enjoy seeing him, and I don't,

think about what the that he is.

I don't think he's betrayed anybody.

You know, I don't think that that that his choices would probably the best but for myself, but for him, I understand it.

And but I know that the people have just spurned it.

People won't talk to him now.

Yeah, I

My thing is, it's really hard.

And I get why, like, I understand that sentiment of going into like knowing that like, yeah, this place is not the best, but I am going to try to maybe be the change.

I get that.

You know, so I, you know, it's very, it's like, I'm not someone who is like,

I can't spurn someone for having that type of mindset.

Like, I, it would be different being like, hey, I'm just here to get all the money I can.

I don't care about, like, that would be if, you know, if even's going out and say something.

something like that, that's a different type of thing.

But I get the whole thing of like, yeah, maybe I can be this, I can change how things are done.

Or even if it's like, hey, I, you know, I gotta put a roof over my head.

I understand those things and I can't really, I, you know, because the thing is, is that

I know, push comes to shove like I would do like it.

There's there's some there's some there's some companies that I know I have said I will never work for.

But, you know, if it comes from me being, you know, homeless, I'm going to have to, you know, yeah, I'm going to have to rethink that.

Yeah, exactly.

I mean, yes, we're we're in total agreement.

Yeah.

So

I think we're coming up on the hour.

It's not, I'm enjoying our conversation.

I don't want to cut it short, but I'm cogent of the amount of time that people will listen.

Yes.

I could probably continue all night, but I won't because also I've got to have dinner.

It's 7.30, yeah, and I promised my wife that I would finish at a reasonable time.

Crystal Preston Watson.

Thank you.

And it's really, it's been really nice to actually talk to you.

Yes.

Not in real life.

Well, in real life, but not in real life.

Yeah.

Zoom counts.

Yeah, it does.

It does.

And I appreciate you sharing everything.

I didn't.

Maybe I'll go, I'll get you back on again another time.

It depends on how much I, like every time I think about doing this, it's just such a chore that I'm not sure how much, but I've committed myself, I've got about a dozen people and I would like to, you know, just be able to talk to them.

Because I don't know, it's something about this stage in my life, you know, I'm old, I'm getting old and

It's nice to have some sort of mementos of my time, and meeting cool people and chatting about stuff.

I mean, and I like this, like, I think a lot of times, having the relaxed, you're not like,

on a panel or something like that.

I like, you know, this is this is really nice, like to just have a chat like, yeah.

And actually be able to because, you know, I've just, you know, it's like I've known of you and I've read your stuff, but it's like I've never we've never had a chance to actually just to sit down and talk.

next time I'm in America, I will, which, as I say, probably won't be.

But if you go to a11yTO next year, I may well go, because I love Toronto.

There was a place I kept seeing you talk, there was a comedy place called Yuck Yucks.

You know?

I'm pretty sure, like, I don't really remember.

I'm

Maybe it's changed name.

I never went in, but I walked past it a couple of times because when I was in Toronto, I went there for a week and I stayed in this place called the Rex.

Oh, yeah.

And it's really nice, cool area around there.

And I spent a lot of time walking around the city, which was nice.

I really enjoyed my time there and took a lot of photos, which I would usually do.

I saw, like, just, I know.

when I was in Toronto, I saw like the last Living Ramone at a club.

Oh, really?

Yes.

And it was at a club called the Bovine Sex Club.

It was like, I, you know, a friend was like, hey, do you want to go see the last Living Ramone play?

And I was like, the last Living Ramone.

Yeah, like I, that's which my friend said he was a Ramone.

Who's the other one?

Was it Ron Ronnie?

Yeah, like, yeah.

So my friend was like, it's the last Living Ramone.

Let's go see them.

And it was like, where?

And it was like, it's at the Bovine Sex Club.

And I was like, cool.

I want to go to the Bovine Sex Club to the Living Ramone.

So I just had to tell them.

Was that any good?

Yeah, it was really.

It was really awesome.

Like super packed.

Like it was one of those just like, you know, like, yeah, I, you know, it's like, you know, I only know like the Ron's kind of like big, you know, bigger like hits.

But but yeah, it was a it was an awesome show.

So I, you know, it's one of those things of like didn't I don't think I don't think they played anything like they maybe played

one or two kind of like the bigger Ramone hits, but other, but even the ones I didn't recognize, but really it was, it was awesome.

So yeah, I'm glad I went, even though the name of the club was a little, it was a little bit.

Yeah, I mean, yeah.

I saw the other day because I never liked Kiss when I was younger, but as I got older, I used to, I really enjoyed, I used to,

I used to go with a friend in my early 20s.

I used to go with a friend in Australia to see a Kiss covers band.

Like they, you know, they did all the makeup and everything.

So it was like it was Kiss.

But anyway, Ace freely died recently.

And I just thought that people are just dropping like flies.

It happens when you get older.

I'm presuming that you're considerably younger than me and lucky that you are.

I'm pretty a lot of people think I'm a lot younger than I am.

Oh, that's all right.

A lot of people think I'm a lot older than I am.

Yeah.

So, I don't think we I don't think we're that we're that far.

I'll be sixty-two in January, so.

OK, I am.

I'm forty-five.

See, yeah.

You're one of the young people who start hanging around with people in their 40s like Patrick and Dave Swallow and Johnny James.

Yeah.

Anyway, thank you, Crystal.

It's been a real pleasure.

And although we probably didn't speak about much, it was just a nice conversation.

No, it was really awesome.

I'm really glad that you invited me on here.

And I think, yeah, I think we had a lot of, like, I think we had a lot of accessibility, bigger things.

We didn't get through all, like, yeah, so this was great.

Well, it doesn't have to be, yeah, I mean, either, it's about people involved in accessibility and web stands and stuff.

And it doesn't have to be that we, you know, like, yeah, I don't.

my day job is to go into the minutia of WCAG and how to do something.

I don't really want to do that.

And I write enough about it anyway.

So what was I going to say?

I can't remember.

Totally got from my head.

Thank you again.

And I'll, well, hopefully I'll speak to you soon.

Yeah, definitely.

Okay.

Thanks.

What I was going to say, if you have

any links that you want me to, I mean, I'm still recording this, but I'll chop this out.

If you've got any links you want to, because I do a blog post related to it.

And obviously before I put it out, I will share it with you so you can check it out.

Yeah, I'll e-mail you the links.

Yeah, honestly, just like my website, but I'll like, I'll just send you, I'll send you that.

Yeah, I mean, if you have a look at the,

post something for Pat, I just, I had a load of Pat related links.

And so yeah, so like Crystal Kron and the new book, et cetera, anything that we mentioned or touched upon, I tend to provide as a link so people can, yeah, make it appear more interesting than it actually is.

No, this is it.

No, I like it.

So I will definitely be watching all the other.

Well, I've got some really interesting people.

I've got Sara Soueidan.

Yes, yeah.

And I've got Natalie Patrice Tucker.

I've got Cynthia Shelly.

I've got Doug Shephers, who's, I don't know if you know Doug, but he's worked W3C for

quite a long time.

And he's like the father of SVG.

He was the person.

Oh, yeah, And he's a classic weirdo too.

So I'll make sure to watch that.

I don't know if you saw it, but I've got this really nice picture of him sitting in this throne made of sort of like sports equipment.

It was in the CBC building in Toronto.

He was talking.

I think I remember seeing you post that like that.

Yeah, it's just, it's just, I just really liked it because I love his beard.

He's too slim.

Anyway, okay, as I say, we, yeah, I'd better go.

Look after yourself.

Okay, you too.

Thank you so much for having me on here.

No worries.

No worries at all.

Have a good night.

Yeah, bye.

Bye.

Somebody calls me on the phone
Say "hey-hey, is Artie home?
You want to take a walk
You want to go cop
You want to go get some Chinese Rock?"
I'm livin' on a Chinese Rock
All my best things are in hock
I'm livin' on a Chinese rock
Everything is in the pawn shop
The plaster fallin' of the wall
My girlfriend cryin' in the shower stall
It's hot as a bitch
I should've been rich
But I'm just diggin' a Chinese ditch
I'm livin' on a Chinese Rock
All my best things are in hock
I'm livin' on a Chinese rock
Everything is in the pawn shop
The plaster fallin' of the wall
My girlfriend cryin' in the shower stall
It's hot as a bitch
I should've been rich
But I'm just diggin' a Chinese ditch
I'm livin' on a Chinese Rock
All my best things are in hock
I'm livin' on a Chinese rock
Everything is in the pawn shop
I'm livin' on a Chinese Rock
I'm livin' on a Chinese Rock
I'm livin' on a Chinese rock
I'm livin' on a Chinese Rock