Amy Warms to the Fireside

Steve:
Okay, well, welcome, Amy Hupe.

Amy:
Thank you.

Steve:
How are you?

Amy:
I'm great. Yeah. Thank holiday Monday.

So having a nice chilled one today. Are you in Australia? Or are you based in UK?

Steve:
No, I'm in Kingston-upon-Thames.

Amy:
Okay. You are Australian, though.

Steve:
I am Australian. Indeed, I am. Yes.

I've always been Australian, but I've lived in Kingston-upon-Thames since 2006, when I started working at TPG. But all my family are English, except me, because my parents emigrated to Australia in 1958. And then, yeah, then we came back to England for six years, and then went back.

So in 1968, when I was four, we came back to England, because all my family are from Birmingham originally.

Amy:
Okay.

Steve:
And so, yeah, but I'm not here because I wanted to live in England, particularly. I'm here because my wife, who is Spanish, we lived in Australia for a while, then she wanted to be closer to her family. And she'd studied in the UK, she went to the University of Roehampton.

And we both got, we both had family members who lived in Kingston.

Amy:
Right.

Steve:
I live in Kingston-upon-Thames, and also, it's a really nice place.

Amy:
Kingston's lovely, yeah. Nice bike shop there, not the iCycle, but my partner's iCycle.

Steve:
There's a couple of bike shops, yeah.

Amy:
Yeah.

Steve:
There's, yeah.

Amy:
Sigma, that's the one we've been to, I think.

Steve:
Oh, okay, yeah, that's just around the corner from me.

Amy:
Yeah.

Steve:
Because I live quite close into the, in the inner Kingston, just around the corner. I live in an old, what used to be the Sopwith Camel aircraft, no, the Sopwith Aircraft Factory.

Amy:
Oh, right, okay.

Steve:
They made the Sopwith Camel, and they made, yeah. So it's quite a historic site, and the building I'm in is like the only bits that are left. There was a whole factory here, but they knocked it all down.

So anyway, enough about me. You see, that's the, I always get into this situation where I end up talking about myself, and I'm not here to talk about myself. We're here to talk about you.

So tell us, yeah, as I say, your journey of discovery, because I'm unsure about what you do. I know that you have a presence that you, as in you do accessible, sorry, you do talks. You're not particularly involved in accessibility, as I understand.

But so anyway, look, you tell us.

Amy:
Who am I?

Steve:
Yeah, what does Amy Hupe do?

Amy:
Oh, God. It's funny you say you're confused about what I do, because so am I, actually. It's becoming increasingly unclear with every year that passes.

So let's go back in time. So I won't take you through my entire life story, but it's probably worth mentioning. I started.

Steve:
It's fine. We've got a while, haven't we? We've got a while, but tell us all the fun bits.

Amy:
Well, I was born in 1989, and I was actually the first baby born in England that year. And I was born on at 12.05 a.m. on New Year's Day. So that's my, that's probably the most exciting thing that's ever happened to me.

I ended up on the newspaper, on the front page of the newspaper. I will say the first baby born in England thing was printed in our local newspaper. And I've never had it substantiated.

And every time that I share this fact, people say that can't be true. There must have been a baby born in those first four minutes beforehand. And have you verified this?

And I think don't take it away from me, because it's the most interesting thing about me. So I kind of don't want to.

Steve:
I don't believe it's the most interesting thing about you.

Amy:
I think it genuinely might be.

Steve:
I was born on Australia Day, which is used to be something. Yeah. But now it's reviled, which understandably, it's sort of, you know, black, sort of white invasion day or something.

They call it now. But at the time, it was still something for celebration. And I think there's still a there's still a public holiday in Australia for my birthday.

But I wasn't the first born. The first born at each hospital got a gold spoon or a silver spoon.

Amy:
But I didn't get anything like that.

Steve:
I didn't get anything. I didn't get anything. But carry on.

So the most interesting thing. So it's all downhill from here. Is that what you're saying?

Amy:
Pretty much, yeah. So I so I end up on the front page of the newspaper with my extraordinarily large head, which I don't think has grown since birth. I think this is like the size that came out.

So my poor mum. And but no, the actual sort of interesting maybe beginning of this story. Workwise, where I started was trying to be a journalist.

And I worked for which magazine? If they do like product reviews and stuff. And I wasn't very good at it.

Actually, it turns out. So I got given quite niche investigations to run, like out of date compost being on sale and garden centres and the best tasting Christmas pudding of the year.

Steve:
So that was it was actually you who had to taste all the difference.

Amy:
No, we hired expert tasters. So we got like chefs and things in to taste them. And yeah, I did get to try them, but I didn't.

My opinion didn't count for anything.

Steve:
Do you like Christmas pudding?

Amy:
Love it. I absolutely love it. Yeah, I could eat every day of the year comfortably.

Steve:
With custard?

Amy:
No, because something cold for me. Cream or brandy cream or ice cream. Probably.

Yeah. I'm not into like hot, hot custard and hot dessert. So not not for me.

Yeah.

Steve:
Yeah. Yeah.

Amy:
Yeah. You served it to me. I'd eat it.

But it's not.

Steve:
But with a bit of a look of disdain on your face.

Amy:
No, I'd keep it. I think I keep the look off my face, but I'd be internally.

Steve:
Yeah.

Amy:
Judging. Yeah. I'd be thinking.

Steve:
Well, if I if you ever have to come over at Christmas time, we ever come over. I'll have I'll have a range of cold and hot accompaniments to.

Amy:
I very much appreciate that. Thank you. That's very considerate.

And so, yeah. So I was a bit crap at that, but I kind of I liked writing. I really like the sort of writing aspect.

I like to research and things. And so at some point I moved into the Digi Ops team, which was like. It was basically, I suppose, more like UX writing and type stuff.

Steve:
So this is a Which still.

Amy:
A Which still.

Steve:
Yes.

Amy:
I was there for quite a long while, about six years in the end. And so my last.

Steve:
That's going to close the door.

Amy:
Oh, yeah. Close away.

Steve:
I could hear the washing machines in the bathroom next to my room.

Amy:
So I can't hear it if that helps. But, yeah, so I so I moved into this sort of digital operations team and it was more like they didn't call it UX writer. I think I had a funny job title, like digital content creator or something.

But I I was doing basically kind of more like product copy. So I was working on at the time, I think it was a conveyancing service and a probate service. So I was having to work with all these legal experts and write.

Yeah. More like I suppose what you'd call like micro copy, like UX copy, more sort of functional stuff. And I quite liked that.

Actually, I got I got quite interested in it. And because of that, I then moved into content design role and I got hired into the WK design system team before the WK design system existed at GDS. And that was where.

Steve:
When was this approximately?

Amy:
So that was in 2017. And I remember it well, because 2016 was the year where many, many things went wrong. It was that year where like everyone died, all these famous people died.

And then I also had three deaths in my personal life as well, right in the last bit of the year. And I also got married that year, which was lovely, although I'm divorced now. So that maybe that was also foreshadowing something bad.

And then Trump got voted in and Brexit happened. And all these. Oh, Brexit didn't.

Did Brexit happen in 2016? Yeah. Yeah, it was, wasn't it?

So that was the year where everything blew up. And then at the end of the year, I was like, oh, my God, I'm leaving this job at this company with all my friends and this place that, you know, I really love to go into this weird role that I don't know what it is and that new place. And it all just I very nearly backed out at the last minute because I was freaking out.

But yeah, so 20 January 2017, I started in this team that was called the patterns and service manual patterns and tools team. So we looked after a bunch of things like WK elements, which was the sort of precursor to the WK design system and the service manual and Cody bits, I suppose. And it was a completely different world to me.

Like content design was a new thing. I hadn't really worked in that way before, although I think I probably gave the strong impression that I had in the interview. And because of my experience working on more like product type content, they they thought, oh, well, proper there.

And I think the way GDS hires content designers, I don't know if it's changed now, but back then it was kind of they'd hire you in cohorts. And then they just pop you in a team that felt right. And I thought I'd be going to work on the WK publishing content.

So all of the sort of policy guidelines and things like that. And then, yeah, I get bundled into this very to me at the time, very sort of techie team and just didn't. I mean, I'm trying to think how I can convey how clueless I was.

Like I just before I left which and went to GDS, I was working with the UX designer who was sending me wireframes of this new product we were working on. And I couldn't. The concept of a wireframe didn't exist to me.

So I'm looking at this thing going, this website is not very good. It doesn't. And I'm going, can you like I think the colours are changing and the fonts look a bit crap and this doesn't seem to work.

And he's like, it's a prototype. It's just a wireframe. You know, this will all change in when it gets built.

And I just couldn't understand that. And so then I get popped into this team. And one of the things they were working on as well as the WK prototype kit.

And so just very, very quickly having to learn this completely new language like I didn't know what design patterns were. Everyone kept talking about design patterns and like it was a known thing. And I'd never heard that term before.

And yeah, I just remember being baffled by all of it.

Steve:
Did you study anything related to design?

Amy:
No, I studied history. So it was. Yeah.

And the thing was, nobody sort of. I think both me and the team that I came into were very unprepared for that because nobody kind of sat me down and said like, here's this very nursery slopes explanation of what you're going to be doing here and what we're doing here. And so for the first six months, I was just in a constant state of bewilderment, just didn't really know what was going on.

And then that's when they started work formally on the WK design system. And the team got sort of split into two. I remember half of us went to go work on the service manual.

And I ended up being the only content designer on the design system bit. And. One thing to say is that I actually, in the end, I think being as clueless as I was, ended up being kind of a strength because the skill and experience level of people in government doing design and development work is hugely varied because in pockets of government, you've got lots of people who have worked in their department for sort of 20, 30 plus years.

And, you know, would have started out in a kind of, I don't know, any sort of role, really, like a kind of web editor type role where you're just putting stuff into a CMS or like a very traditional graphic designer, where maybe even kind of drawing things out and then you get kind of moved around over the years and your job title changes and stuff. And and so and then there's lots of like juniors and interns and stuff working in government. And so and the design system that we built had to work for all of those people.

It had to be able to be understandable by everybody. So including the general public. Right.

Because it's there's a real onus on its taxpayers money. So there's a burden on government to make sure that you're sort of being transparent about what you're doing. So the fact that I was so useless then, clueless, let's say not useless, meant that, you know, I had to work quite hard to translate the things they were saying and talking about into language that I could understand.

Right. And I was at the time I was very much the sort of lowest common denominator. So it was a good as a good barometer for the team because it's like, well, if we can write this in a way that I can understand, then everyone's going to understand it.

And then, yeah, over the course of the three years I worked on it. So I worked on it from literally being a prototype all the way through to being a kind of more mature live product. And I just really grew to love that space, you know, design systems.

And yes, I'm definitely not would not describe myself as an expert in accessibility. But at GDS, I think through kind of osmosis and culture and everything, you do develop a both a kind of knowledge of accessibility and a sense of responsibility to try and advocate for it and do your best to make things accessible during your work. And yeah, and I just ended up really loving that world.

So I've kind of stayed in it ever since. So after GDS, I started working as a contractor slash consultant. And I since then I've kind of flitted between different roles, but they tend to be either content designer, usually working on a design system or another slightly more technical product, or a kind of general design systems coach, advisor, or even a team manager.

Like quite that's probably been my most common role is that I'm a design systems team lead for a little bit. So I'll come in and manage a team either at the beginning of the journey.

Steve:
So it's really like freelance consulting that you do now.

Amy:
Yeah. Yeah. So I think I do like I tend to work with teams at different points in their design system teams.

That is at different points in their journey. So either they'll be like right at the beginning. Like the client I'm working with right now is very much at the beginning of their journey.

And or I'll be working with people who sort of hit this point that we quite often see in design systems world where they've maybe been going for three, five, sometimes even longer years. And they've just sort of gone, well, what do we do now? You know, we need to adapt for some reason, either there's like a rebrand or big accessibility overhaul going on or we're re-platforming or something.

And we need to figure out how our design system is going to evolve to support that. So then I'll come in and help them work out what their roadmap looks like and stuff.

Steve:
So in clear language for my own benefit, what is design system?

Amy:
So the definitions vary. I think I tend to define it a bit more broadly than a lot of people do in the most high level, simple terms. I think it's just the tools and the practices and processes and kind of organisational structures that help you get something from an idea, you know, a design inception all the way through to being a live piece of content or product or feature or something like that.

But it's done at a company or organisation level. So it's the aim of it really is to try and make things more consistent outwardly for the users of your digital product suite or more and more efficient internally. So like rather than just redesigning a button every single time that we have to create a new piece of content or a feature or something, we've got a button that we can pick from.

The designers can use it in prototypes. The developers have a corresponding resource that they can then use in their build. And everybody's singing from the same hymn sheet.

That's kind of the idea behind it. And in practice, I think it quite often gets defined as the most common sort of set of artefacts that make up a design system, which are typically there's kind of the Holy Trinity. Quite often we have a documentation website that acts as like the shop floor.

So the entry point, I suppose, to the design system. Then you'll often have a design library or sort of prototyping kit of some description with all the design assets in it. And then you have a corresponding developer library.

So usually with like components and style sheets and all that sort of thing. And it should all magically work together. And it never does.

And then there's like processy things that that kind of go with it quite often as well. So the two main ones being support. So how's your team going to support all of the people in the organization and teams in the organization need to use it when it breaks or doesn't meet their needs or whatever?

And contribution. So how do you get people to contribute their own stuff to it? It shouldn't be like a team just sitting there dishing out components to the organization.

It should be people saying, oh, we've encountered this need in the course of our product work. And now we'd like to share that with other people so they can use it as well. Yeah.

Steve:
Cool. Sounds like fun. Yeah, unfortunately for me, I mean, UX is a foreign land as well as any complex, you know, sort of systems that you're describing.

I happily say I don't touch UX much at all. That's done by other people within whatever organization I've been involved in. OK.

What I was going to ask you was, is that your house behind? Like, is that real?

Amy:
It is. Well, it's not my. So I rent it, but and I'm actually moving out in a few months.

But yes, it's where I live and it's real. Yeah. So it's an old Tudor building.

Steve:
Yeah, it's lovely. Yeah, it's really nice.

Amy:
It's really I'm going to miss it when I go because it's yeah, it's very characterful. Where is that? Approximately?

It's in Hitchin, Hertfordshire. So a bit north of London.

Steve:
Yeah. OK. I'm hopeless because I am, as you say, I'm an Australian, but I've lived in London for 18 years now.

But because I work from home, I never really go out.

Amy:
Yeah.

Steve:
So I don't really know. Like I know certain places, but my geography of my understanding of the geography of England is sadly lacking.

Amy:
Yeah. I mean, mine as well. And I don't really have any excuse because I've been here my whole life.

But basically, if you draw a straight line between Cambridge and London, Cambridge and London, Hitchin is about halfway up that line.

Steve:
So it's like semi rural, rural?

Amy:
Yeah, it's kind of in between. It's like a little medieval market town. So it's in a town.

And I actually live right in the town centre, which you wouldn't probably think from the surroundings. But yeah, you kind of walk 10 minutes in any direction and you'll be in a green belt. So it's pretty nice.

Nice combination of the two.

Steve:
Excellent. What I'll do now is I'll crack open the Rose Gallery, if that's all right. Yeah.

It's Rogues Gallery. Yeah, when I do the captioning, it always comes out as Rose.

Amy:
That's what I thought you were saying.

Steve:
Yeah, well that's what the AI thinks I'm saying too. But I'm not saying Rogues.

Amy:
Rogues Gallery.

Steve:
Give me a moment.

Amy:
I will.

Steve:
OK. Now, I don't know if you've watched any of these previously.

Amy:
I have started in preparation for this. I started watching Hayden, who is our mutual friend, I believe. Although I see Andy's face on there as well.

Andy's a mutual friend as well. But yes, I started watching Hayden's episode, but I only got a few minutes into it before I had to come and do this recording. So it's not going to be a surprise for me.

Steve:
OK, so the Rose Gallery. So the top left, do you know this person? The reason why I've got his name there is people just don't know him.

Amy:
I don't know him.

Steve:
I like his hat. You've never met Dr Swallow?

Amy:
No.

Steve:
Oh my God. Anyway, this is David Swallow. He's Dr David Swallow.

He did his doctorate in web accessibility at York.

Amy:
Oh, right.

Steve:
He comes from York. He lives in York. He works at TPGI, which is now called Despero, which I worked at for 17 and a half years.

And other people such as Leonie and Henny and Ian and Patrick and Graham. A load of us from Tetralogical used to work there.

Amy:
Right, OK.

Steve:
So Dave's a good friend of ours, lives in York. He's also a UX person, mainly. But he does accessibility stuff.

I mean, that's what he's done. And he's wearing... What I attempted to do was draw in the sponsorship of the HTMLZ, which is my website's leisure wear arm, into this.

So he's actually wearing one of the products, which is a beanie.

Amy:
Lovely, I like it.

Steve:
With the expression on his face. I've actually got the T-shirt on.

Amy:
Oh, yeah, that's good.

Steve:
So that's how you can buy that. But actually, because you're on here, you get a free item of your choice.

Amy:
Do I?

Steve:
Yes.

Amy:
That's very exciting. You didn't even have to tell me that to get me on here.

Steve:
No, but yeah.

Amy:
I'll definitely pick you up on that.

Steve:
Yeah, well, by the time we finish, you'll think at least I've got something.

Amy:
OK.

Steve:
Next up, do you know who that person is?

Amy:
No, I don't. I feel I'm going to be really bad at this game.

Steve:
Well, that's OK. Yeah, that's Patrick Locke. Again, he's someone who's reasonably well-known because he's all over the shop when it comes to accessibility, especially in WCAG circles, because he's involved in the...

I don't know if you've ever looked at WCAG 2.2 or WCAG 2, and there's hundreds or thousands even of documents that are supported. Yeah. So what Pat has been doing and has been working on, along with quite a few other people, has been working on updating the documentation, so all the techniques, the failures, bringing them up to...

or making them usable, because some of them were written when it was WCAG 2.0. So we're talking, you know, 10 years.

Amy:
Yeah.

Steve:
Yeah, and they were old then. So, like, you know, they're still old speed. So he's been working on that, and he's been doing a great job.

But, as always, in standards, web standards land or standards land, there's a lot of pushback, a lot of... You know, you've got to invest a lot of time. So that's why you see this there.

But he's also wearing a T-shirt of his own creation, actually, that I put on HTMLZ as well. He likes pixel art. He's got his own T-shirt factory as well.

So, anyway, that's Patrick's work. Also, I work with Pat, and I'm his manager.

Amy:
Okay.

Steve:
Well, I used to be his manager back when TPG does. I don't so much, like, I refer to my management style as homeopathic, so... Okay.

That'll help.

Amy:
So made up, basically. Now, I've just offended all the homeopaths that listen to your podcast.

Steve:
Oh, yeah. Well, I mean, it's just very light. Have you ever seen that meme where the guy is patting people down?

Amy:
The patting down is my favourite meme. Yeah, it's my favourite. I use that at least once a week to reference something, yeah.

Steve:
Yeah, well, that's my management style.

Amy:
That's how you manage. Okay, great. Sounds like the dream.

Steve:
Yeah, well, people seem to like it. Next up...

Amy:
Andy.

Steve:
Andy. So I don't think I've actually ever spoken to Andy Bell. I've spoken to Andy Bell less than I've spoken to you.

Amy:
Oh, really?

Steve:
Yeah, I don't really know Andy Bell. I know that he helped the redevelopment of the Tetralogical website, but I wasn't involved with that. I knew what was going on.

So I haven't actually spoken to him.

Amy:
Well, he's very tall and very northern and, yeah, he's a character. He's good fun, though. I like him.

Steve:
Well, he looks like he's good fun, I'm sure.

Amy:
He doesn't really look like he's good fun in that photo, I wouldn't say. Would you? Would you?

I wouldn't take fun from that.

Steve:
Well, I had a look for a photo where he did look like a twat, but I couldn't really... The paw was small. Sorry, that came out wrong.

Well, that was the most professional photo I could find of him.

Amy:
Yeah.

Steve:
Yeah. Because I'm all about professionalism, as you probably know.

Amy:
Yeah, me as well, me as well. Yeah. Andy's good fun.

Last time I saw Andy, we were walking up to a conference in Brighton, FFConf, if you know it, and a seagull swooped in between us and took my breakfast muffin from my hand.

Steve:
Really?

Amy:
Yeah, and Andy had absolutely no sympathy whatsoever for me, so that was a shame.

Steve:
Yeah.

Amy:
And that's him all over, really. I feel like he wielded it consistently.

Steve:
I've never been to FFConf, but I...

Amy:
It's good, it's a good laugh.

Steve:
It's Remy Sharp, right?

Amy:
Yeah, that's right, yeah.

Steve:
Yeah, and Dentrological regularly, we sponsor it.

Amy:
Yeah, I think, I feel like Leonie spoke at the last...

Steve:
Yeah.

Amy:
Did she speak at the last one, or the one before?

Steve:
I think so, yes.

Amy:
Yeah.

Steve:
And also, because Henny Swan, who's one of the other directors, lives in Brighton.

Amy:
Yes, yeah.

Steve:
So, yeah, so we have a strong association with FFConf.

Amy:
Yeah. No, it's great. I recommend it if you can get down there at any point.

Steve:
Yeah, yeah, if I can get out of Kingston. So, yes, because Andy, I think I saw Andy at State at the Browser, but only briefly. He was there in the room, and then I think he left, so I didn't get in trouble.

Amy:
He disappeared. He's a fan of an Irish exit, Andy is, because he lives in Bristol, well, no, Cheltenham area.

Steve:
Right.

Amy:
And so he will quite often come down to things for, like, a day, and then he'll bugger off to get his train back at, like, 3 o'clock. So that's probably what happened there.

Steve:
Yeah, I understand that. Missed all the fun. Yeah.

Next person up.

Amy:
I do not know this lady.

Steve:
This is Lola Odomola.

Amy:
Oh, I do know the name. I know her name, but I've not met her.

Steve:
Yeah, I mean, she's got her own Wikipedia page, which she's – Wow. I don't think that she created it herself. She's done a lot of stuff, like she developed Black Girls Code or Black Women Code.

Amy:
Yeah.

Steve:
Yeah, and stuff like that. And I've been working with her a bit with accessibility support data, which is she's trying to get the sort of data that you get from – what is it? Can I use that sort of data, the NDN type information, for accessibility support stuff.

So a lot of the, you know, how well is role space and properties supported in browsers, et cetera. So she's working on that. And I'm sort of involved with that.

And also she's on the W3C Technical Architecture Group. So she's a brainiac, as I described, Wendy Rhee, who's also – Wildly intimidating.

Amy:
People like that, I find.

Steve:
Yeah.

Amy:
A Wikipedia page, you sort of – that's when I went for you.

Steve:
Well, she's very self-evasive.

Amy:
Yeah.

Steve:
Yeah, she's – yeah, she's very nice. She's going to come on and talk at some point. Do you know who the bottom left – you should know this person.

Amy:
No, I don't. I mean, I do – his face looks familiar, but we've got – His name's Gareth Paul Williams.

Steve:
He used to be head of accessibility.

Amy:
Yes, okay, I do know. I know that name, yeah.

Steve:
It's also probably because when I put the photos on, I tend to just munch them in so they fit into the thing. So they might look a bit wider or longer than they normally would. So Gareth's, yeah, another accessibility – outspoken accessibility bod who is going to be coming to me at some point in the next month or two.

I've got a load of interesting people. Well, I've already had a load of interesting people, including yourself. The last person I had to speak was the person, Wendy Reid, who I think you said you don't know.

Amy:
Wendy Reid? No, I don't know Wendy Reid.

Steve:
Yeah, well, that is her. That is her next to Gareth.

Amy:
That's her, is it? Yeah.

Steve:
Yeah, she's Canadian.

Amy:
Okay.

Steve:
You can list her in the podcast and vote up. Do you know who the next person is?

Amy:
Is it Henny Swan?

Steve:
No.

Amy:
It's not Henny Swan. Does Henny Swan have coloured hair, like dyed hair?

Steve:
No, Leonie does.

Amy:
I know Leonie does, but I've seen Henny speak at a conference.

Steve:
Maybe she has in the past.

Amy:
I was very blown away by her talk. I remember it was a real highlight of the day for me. I found since COVID happened, not since I had COVID, but since we had the pandemic, although maybe me having COVID has something to do with this, I feel like I've developed a face blindness, like for real.

I feel like now I meet people or I see people. I used to have this amazing photographic memory, would never forget a face, never forget a name. And now people will come up to me, like point blank, they'll be like, oh, we had that really fun evening together after that conference.

And I'm like, I have no recollection of ever having met you. So basically, I just can't identify, because you said Henny Swan earlier, it popped her into my head. But I felt, you know, they say like, you'll always remember how someone makes you feel.

I remember how she made me feel, but I couldn't place it. So no, I don't know this woman, if it's not Henny Swan.

Steve:
Yeah. I mean, I'm much the same with people. I mean, when you read, I've met, when you read numerous times, I totally forgot that I met her at XSVTO, which is a conference in Canada, last October.

Amy:
Right.

Steve:
The last time I recall meeting was like about three years ago at a technical plenary of W3C thing. But then, and that's why I take lots of photos when I'm at these things. And the reason why I do it is so that I can look back and remember what actually occurred, because without the photos, I wouldn't know.

Amy:
You'd be lost. Well, do you know, on a really frightening incident of that happened to me last year, like this is the most extreme it's ever been. So my, I was doing some work with the BBC and my kind of, I don't really have bosses anymore because I am self-employed, obviously, but they normally appoint you someone who's going to kind of act like your line manager while you're there.

And so I had this guy, Andy, I'm sure he won't mind me mentioning. I'm sure he's probably not going to watch this. I think he's in slightly different echo chamber.

I hope so, because it's really embarrassing. But we both went to the same conference when I'd been there for maybe about six months. And I said hello to him and stuff.

And then we kind of went our separate ways. And then the next day we were chatting in Slack and I said, oh, it was great to finally meet you in person. And he just didn't reply.

And I was like, whatever. Then I realised after that, that not only had I already met him in person twice, but he's on my first week of working with the BBC, he'd come down to the London office and spent the entire day with me, like figuring out the roadmap and everything. We had lunch together and I had completely wiped it from my memory.

Steve:
That's freaky.

Amy:
I was like, yeah, because he's thinking, who's this absolutely insane woman that I've hired? Honestly, I don't know what happened. It really freaked me out.

You know when you think, is there something really genuinely very wrong with me? But I think it was just the context. And I don't know.

God knows. But, yeah, that was a scary one.

Steve:
It does sound like. So, yeah, just going back to the roads going. This is a woman called Cheryl Little.

Amy:
Okay.

Steve:
I thought she was Canadian, but she's not. She's from America. And she does accessibility, usability, that sort of stuff as well.

And she's going to be coming to talk in the next couple of months with us. But I'm not surprised you haven't heard of her, because there's lots of people that I haven't heard of as well. But I remember one of her talks is about burnout.

And I think that you also talked about burnout as well.

Amy:
Yeah. I have wanged on about burnout quite extensively in the public sphere. I'll tell you a good story about that in a minute.

Steve:
Yeah. Sure. So, yeah.

So that's why. And also because I just, I was talking about with Wendy and got in contact with her because I hadn't seen her for a while.

Amy:
Yeah.

Steve:
But last but not least.

Amy:
Hayden. Hayden.

Steve:
Yeah. So that's how I came in contact with you. Because also I think the SOTB, the state of the browser once before or last, I think that you were there.

The last time when you were there and I saw you with Hayden outside.

Amy:
Yeah.

Steve:
Yeah.

Amy:
That sounds about right. That's where I'm pretty much always spend time with Hayden.

Steve:
Yeah. He's an interesting. I was looking for this photo because I like this photo because he reminds me of all the illustration reminds me.

He looks like Frank Zappa. Yeah. And I'm a big Zappa fan.

So it's sort of. Yeah. So I'm a big Hayden fan as well.

I must admit.

Amy:
I'm a big Hayden fan too.

Steve:
Yeah.

Amy:
He's a good laugh. And he's a good lad. I remember being quite frightened of him when I first kind of joined him.

When I first joined this space and started working in this space, I went to loads and loads of conference talks because I was just trying to learn really quickly. And I saw a couple by Hayden and I thought, and I followed him on Twitter and I thought, what a scary man. Like, I hope I never meet him because he just seems like he'd tell you to shreds in about 10 seconds.

And he's actually the nicest person. I would say incredibly serious at work. Like I've worked with him now a couple of times on client work.

And it's not that I ever doubted his skill, but I I'm sure you won't mind me saying I may have, have had doubts about his professionalism, but actually he's very, he's very good at yeah. Dealing with stakeholders and things. He's he's just, yeah, he's brilliant.

Steve:
Yeah. Yeah. He's very down to earth when you, when you speak to him.

I mean, we met through discussions about the HTML heading outline stuff. This was like 15 years ago and we've been friends ever since, which I don't get to see him or talk to him that often. But when I do, whenever I do, I always really enjoy his company.

Yeah. Well, he's got, yeah. I did two podcasts with him because, because the original Rose Gallery had like 16 people.

He only got through half of it in the first. So we did a second to, to, to finish off the Rose Gallery.

Amy:
To sweep up.

Steve:
Yeah. That's part of the reason, but also, I mean, he's got a lot to say and I really like what he does. I mean, he's one of the most talented people just, you know, like the, the, the videos, the music, the, the concepts, you know, everything he does is really interesting.

Amy:
Yeah. He's got a really good, I think a really interesting blend of sort of creativity and then a quite kind of technical knowledge. Like I think he's, I think that's what people like relate to about him and like about him is that he's, he, he's very good at communicating things in a way that you, that will stay with you, I suppose.

Steve:
Yeah. Yeah, definitely. He knows his shit.

Amy:
He does.

Steve:
And yeah. And he's, and he's a good teacher. Okay.

So that's it for the Rose Gallery. We can fuck that off now and go back to the, the two of us chatting.

Amy:
I don't think I've ever been interviewed where someone said we can fuck that off now before, but I do like it.

Steve:
Well, that's just the way. Yeah.

Amy:
Yeah. It's great.

Steve:
That's, that's, that's why. Yeah. I'm just.

Yeah. Sorry. Okay.

So, so you, you worked at the GDS and then you now became freelancer or consultant. How long have you been doing the consultancy for?

Amy:
Since 2020. So actually end of, I had to find official this out the other day, cause I'm doing a, I'm in the middle of buying a house. So I had to dig out all my company accounts and stuff.

So I incorporated my company on the 11th of November, 2019. And yeah. It's called frankly design limited.

Steve:
And how do people get in contact with you if they want to hire you?

Amy:
Oh, just Google Amy Hupe. There's actually not many of us. I think there's two, two of us and one of them is a Christian activist.

So I'm not that one. She's also got blonde hair.

Steve:
I was going to ask you about that. You're blonde hair and you're Christian activism.

Amy:
No, that's, that's not me. So I'm the one that overshares on the internet, goes on about design systems a lot. That's yeah.

I think, I think, I think I'm the top result, but that might be my Google being biased towards me. Cause I Google myself a lot.

Steve:
It's like when you put your own name in the chat, chat GPT or some such, it says nice things about you. Yeah. Yeah, exactly.

So I was going to, I was going to bring back or come back to the subject of burnout. And the reason being is I, I really like, I didn't understand or didn't, I couldn't get the concept of burnout in the, in the accessibility industry, so to speak until I, at the AccessibilityTO last October, there was a guy called Eric Bailey. I don't know if you've heard of Eric.

Amy:
Yeah, I know Eric.

Steve:
Yeah. He did the talk and it, it just gave me insight that I hadn't had before because I, as I explained somebody sometime, or just shout into the void that I've always been, you know, my professional life has been in accessibility, but I've always worked at firms. Well, I've worked at TPG and now at Technological, I'm surrounded by people that know their shit.

At least some people know, I mean, sorry, everybody knows their shit at Technological, but, but you know, less so at the TPGI, but most people do. But anyway, I didn't feel that sense of burnout because I wasn't, I wasn't expected to be the person that knows everything.

Amy:
Yeah.

Steve:
And I think that if you work in small teams or you're on your own, you are, you know, accessibility is a subject, but it's very broad and complex and it's not something, you know, it's just like design is, you know, it's a similar thing. UX, it's the, it's made up of many sort of sub bits where people have expertise in it, but they, well, I can't claim to know everything about accessibility and thankfully I don't have to, because I know people that, that do know. So I can just, you know, ask.

Is this a concept that you find familiar or is it something?

Amy:
Yeah, definitely. I mean, I think that one of the most important contributing factors for burnout is this kind of, it's friction, right? Is this, is this hamster, something that creates this kind of hamster wheel effect where we feel like we're constantly trying and expending effort for towards a goal that is just not materializing and, and just don't feel like we're making a difference.

Steve:
Right.

Amy:
And so I think it's very common in accessibility because you tend to have this sort of quite for in burnout terms, quite risky combination of people who care very much feel very impassioned about, about the cause and often working environments where it's not supported, not understood, not, as you say, surrounded by people who are kind of aligned from a values point of view and also a knowledge and skill point of view. And what I find is that in the, and this has certainly been my experience in this kind of initial pre-burnout phase, that can be actually the thing that drives you, right? You think, well, God, I can see all the difference I could make here.

And I really care about this and I'm going to put everything I've got into it. And then, but the fact is like, if you don't have the supporting structures to make progress, you can be the best person in the world. You can have the most skill in the world.

You can be brilliant and you can be doing really everything right, but it's not going to work out. And I think that you get a similar sort of effect in design systems as well, because design systems are not necessarily sort of broadly understood. I would say they're similar to kind of accessibility in terms of understanding and acceptance.

And so you see a lot of burnout in the design system space also, because it's often people who are very conscientious system thinkers, like very aware of the really broad context in which they're working and really trying to make something happen at scale and just feeling like in a lot of my talks, I use this slide of a salmon like swimming upstream because it's that's how it feels, I think for a lot of people. yeah, I mean, I, similarly to you, I, I kind of thought burnout was like no, I didn't realise that it was a very serious kind of medically recognised thing for a long time.

I sort of heard people talking about being burnt out and I thought it was a kind of colloquial expression that I really, I really thought that that wasn't just me being sceptical about it. It's just, that's what I thought it was. And then, and then I started to meet people who were burning out probably because of the space I was working in.

And then I myself got pretty badly burnt out in, well, I think it kind of started about 2020 and there were a lot of compounding factors, right. It wasn't just work. It was also there was stuff going on in my personal life as well.

But I honestly it's, we're six years on now and I still feel not back to who I was before that happened. And it, yeah, it's very serious, life-changing thing, actually, I think.

Steve:
so in what ways has it negatively affected you and is, are there any positives to the experience?

Amy:
So has it, how did it negatively affect me? Well, I guess so I, the way it, the way I think it happened for me is it was when I started working at GDS, I had that thing of like, right. I can see all the potential that I could do in this job.

And I really care about it. And I was also surrounded by people that really cared about it as well. But towards the end of my time there, there were a few difficulties that made it a bit harder for us to do our work.

Like as a team, not just me as an individual, but a few kinds of things that got in the way, like there was a big effort to try and deal with Brexit from, you know, a government digital point of view. And there was lots going on that kind of took focus away from the work we were doing. So suddenly this thing that had been quite easy and it had quite a lot of momentum was becoming quite laden with friction.

And, and I just responded to that by pushing harder. So I, you know, I remember there was a point where I was coming in in the morning and I really want to stress, this wasn't expected by anyone I was working with. It was purely off my own back, but I was getting into the office so early in the morning that I was like setting off the auto lights.

The lights hadn't even come on yet. And I'd walk in and the lights would go on in the building. And I was a bit addicted to that sense of, I guess, validation and achievement that the job had given me before.

So when it wasn't coming because things were getting harder, I was like, well, I just got to work a bit harder then I just got to work a bit harder. So it was probably like six months of, of pre burnout, like prep happened there and then left that job and started a new one in January. My first contracting role for a healthcare tech company, a bit, I won't talk about them too much, but it wasn't a great context at all.

I worked with some really lovely people there, but I think what the company, what the organisation was trying to do was really sketchy, which became sort of increasingly apparent the longer I was there.

Steve:
So you're not talking about Palantir?

Amy:
No, no, no, I won't name them.

Steve:
No, no, no, it's fine.

Amy:
They've actually gone out of business now anyway, and I have slagged them off publicly quite a few times, but I believe Tetralogical have worked with them and I just don't want to do, well, in fact, I know they did because I worked with Ian from Tetralogical when I was there, but I don't want to, like, I honestly, I met some really great people that I'm still in touch with and I really like that. So it's nothing on that. The individuals I worked with were mostly great.

There was a couple of people that I really didn't gel with and that made everything harder, but just culturally it was so difficult. I was trying to learn a new job. It was my first job as a product manager.

It was a very different context from GDS. I had some very demanding stakeholders and everything just got very difficult. You know, I was working very long hours.

I remember, like, one night it was my husband at the time's birthday and I'd gone into the office and we were supposed to be going out for dinner. And this is just not like me. I'm not this sort of person at all.

I'm like, have a big place, a lot of value on my personal life and my personal relationships and things. But I was still in the office by eight, like phoning him in tears going, I can't come home. I can't come home.

I'm so sorry. I'll take you out tomorrow and everything. And, oh, it just drained the life out of me.

And then COVID happened and they were very resistant to letting us work from home. And then, and in the end I sort of said to my team, like, just work from home. Like, I think we're going to lock down soon and I'll get in trouble.

You know, I don't, I'm not an employee. If they get rid of me, they get rid of me. Like just, I'm, you know, they were freaked out as we all were and I didn't want to put them through that.

So, and then I got in trouble over that. And then like two days later, we actually went into lockdown and then I have, I have OCD, like diagnosed OCD and it tends to centre around health for me. It's like one of the main areas.

So COVID, as you can imagine, was just also a nightmare. So that was a kind of personal thing going on. And it built up and built up and built up.

And then I had this week where I started to get a really bad headache and like neck ache. So I'd wake up at like five o'clock in the morning with my head pounding on my neck, really stiff and sore. And like, God, I've got the tension headache or something.

This isn't great. And it was like, when I look back, I realised what a state of like chronic stress I was in because normally if that happened to me now, I'd be like, something is very physically wrong with me. But at the time, everything was this swirling mess of stress and overwhelm.

And so I just kind of absorbed it and went like, oh, you know, whatever, that's just happening. And I was getting up at like 5am to take painkillers. And then I was noticing that whole week I was getting really tearful at work and stuff.

And I was like, this isn't like me, you know, I'm not, I can be emotional, but I don't typically cry at work and stuff, but everything just felt like insurmountably difficult. And then towards the end of the week, I got this rash all the way down my neck and the side of my head. And I got diagnosed with shingles.

And then, and so it was like in my head and neck, which is what the pain was. And then two days later, after I started and I worked through it, I, even after I got diagnosed, I carried on working. So I just thought I couldn't take a break and had all this like sense of responsibility.

And then I, two days after I got diagnosed with shingles and started my antivirals, my face started feeling funny. And I was like, Oh, that's weird. Like I feel like I can't move my mouth properly.

And within two hours of feeling like that, I got completely paralysed down one side of my face and neck and got rushed into hospital because they thought I might be having a stroke. I was obviously by myself because it was COVID and I couldn't go in with anyone. So I'm like phoning people, saying my goodbyes and stuff, thinking this is the end.

And, and I basically got this neurological condition called Ramsey Hunt syndrome, which can happen if you get shingles in your head or neck. And it's very rare. I should say, if anyone's listening, they've got health anxiety, it's like two in a million.

I was just very unlucky. But yeah, it was kind of.

Steve:
Does it make the side of your face drop?

Amy:
Yeah. So it looks like Bell's palsy or like if somebody's had a stroke that, you know, it looks like that, but it's, it's very, very painful and the recovery rate is quite poor. I was really lucky actually.

Like I've got a couple of residual symptoms, but basically fine, but yeah, it was horrible. And it took, so I had to basically, I had to quit my job overnight because I couldn't work and I was in so much pain and it took probably four months for the paralysis to go, but I'd say it took me a year to get back to my pre Ramsey Hunt syndrome health. And since then, the, I don't know if it was just like the trauma of it all, or if it was the burnout that had kind of compounded to that point, but I've just never been quite the same.

I feel like I've never been able to muster that same level of care about my work. In a way that probably sounds quite healthy, but in a way that I think sometimes I'm a bit too ambivalent about things, you know, a little bit too apathetic about things that I really shouldn't be apathetic about. And yeah.

And I just, I find more often than I ever did before. Sometimes there's just this wall. So I'll sit down to work or something or to write a blog post or organize something.

And it's like, I just can't and I don't know how to explain it in a way that makes sense, but it's, it's literally almost like a veil comes down and I just feel immobilized and I'm like, I can't do it. I can't think I feel exhausted. I can't turn my brain on.

And when that happens, I just have to step away and not, and just leave it for a bit because it won't, I can't push through it at all. And it's yeah. And I, I do think that's a bit of a burnout thing.

I think it's just, and I just sort of got to the point right now where I'm not, I'm not going to try and fight it anymore. I'm not going to try and get back to normal. I think I'm just going to go with it and hope that one day, you know, I get, I get back to sort of somewhere like I used to be, but it's there.

Steve:
I mean, it's partially, I mean, you're still young, but I can imagine that it's partially an aged thing as you, you know, mature that you become less passionate, but you know, you still have a genuine passion for things, but you're just more measured about, you know, your response to things. I mean, it sounds to me is like you, you just looking after yourself more.

Amy:
Maybe. Yeah. And to be fair, like, I think it's probably been that whole period of being quite burnt out and not being able to prioritise work in the same way has been stretched out for me because in like 2023, I separated from my husband who I'd been with for 12 years.

And so I had to move. I actually had to move twice. I moved somewhere else before I moved into this flat.

And, and then I don't know if you, I don't know if, you know, sort of, if you're, you don't contract, do you, you work directly for Tetra logical, but if you know, contract. Oh, you're one of the, yeah. Okay.

You're one of the owners. I'm sorry. I really like having four of us directors.

Okay. There is four. So that's not me being.

Yeah. Okay. Tetra.

Yeah. Oh, Tetra. Okay.

Like four. Yeah. I've got you.

So, but if you know, contractors and stuff, you might know like 2023 was a really rough year for contracting. So I ended up working for about half that year and not really intentionally. I took two months off on purpose, but the rest of it just couldn't find work.

And, and yeah, just, and I've had like family being ill and stuff and it's just, so it's been, I think it's probably been prolonged because there's been a lot of life stress in the last like three years as well. But yeah, I guess I, one positive factor to answer your question is, yeah, it has taught me more about like when to, when to stop and like to sort of recognize when I'm approaching that limit and back away rather than like persevering and making myself sick.

Steve:
Well, that's good.

Amy:
Yeah, no, it's good. It's just not, I'm just not used to it, but I, yeah, it's a good thing.

Steve:
So are you, so you're currently contracting. Yes. Are you planning to do any talks in the future, near future?

Amy:
Yeah, so I've got two, I don't know if they've been announced yet, but I've got two coming up towards the end of the year. I did take a little break from conference speaking for a while because I just got to the point where I was having to come up with an idea for a talk. And I think it really works best when you've got an idea that's like desperate to get out.

And then you say yes to something when it, when the right thing comes along. But, yeah, I was finding my last few talks, I was really scraping the barrel for things to say. So, yeah, I've got a couple coming up.

I think one's in October, one's in November, perhaps.

Steve:
Is that in the UK or?

Amy:
Yeah, both in the UK. Yeah, so I, yeah, so I will be getting back on the stage. yeah, one of the things that made me take a break actually, which was my burnout story I mentioned earlier was, so you mentioned State of the Browser, and I gave a talk in 2023 at State of the Browser about burnout.

And it was called It All Means Nothing in the End, which is relevant. So it was about me sort of trying, like, feeling like I just didn't care about work anymore. And like, it all means nothing in the end.

And then how I sort of went about slowly rebuilding a sense of purpose and motivation around it. And like the process I went through to do that. So I must stress, like, this was work focused talk, a little bit about existential crisis and stuff.

But yeah. And, and then maybe a few weeks after the talk was published, I got a couple of messages on Mastodon, I think, from people saying, oh, really hope you're doing okay. Please ignore the trolls.

The talk was brilliant. I was like, I don't, what, what do you mean? And I hadn't had anything bad about it.

I just had lots of people saying, oh, I feel the same. And thank you for talking about it and stuff. So obviously immediately your heart starts going, I'm like, what people say about me.

So then I went to YouTube and had a look through the comments and I found one that said, oh, she's insufferable or something. So it's like, whatever. I don't care.

I probably am to some people. And then someone replied to that and said, oh, if you haven't seen Paul Vanderclay's evisceration of this talk, I really recommend watching it. So I'm like, who's this guy?

Who's Paul Vanderclay? What's he doing talking about me? So I found, so I searched Paul Vanderclay, Amy Hupe, and I find this video, right?

My talk was 20 minutes long, 20, 25 minutes long. His video is an hour and a half. And it's basically him doing a blow by blow critique of my talk.

And he is a pastor. From what I can tell is like an alt-right church in like Alabama or something. And he has, and he basically, because it had, because it mentions like existential crisis.

And I'd said like, I don't, what's the meaning of it all sort of thing. He, he was like, this is my, this is my time to shine. And so, and he, and there's sort of the summary is like, if she's struggling with meaning in her life, she needs to find God and have babies.

And that was kind of it. But he, he strung that out for an hour and a half and he called me like mentally ill quite a lot. And I was like, well, yeah, like that's, that's sort of the point of what I'm saying.

I mean, he's not, it's not, not a no, like, and then, oh, and it was awful. And then I started to read through the comments on his video and everybody just tearing me to shreds. And, and it was fun.

It was actually very funny. Like one of the comments, I got Hayden to design into a t-shirt for me. Cause it was so poetic and brilliant.

Steve:
Is it still available?

Amy:
I think so. Yeah. I think it's, you can buy it on Hayden's merch.

Steve:
Oh, no, not the, the, oh, the top.

Amy:
Yeah. Yeah. You can go.

Steve:
Yeah. Well, one of the things I do is when I publish, publish this talk, I'll, I'll give a, you know, some of the things we mentioned, we talked about. So if you could send me the links to anything else that you think is in, you know, like your talks or whatever, I'd appreciate that.

Amy:
Yeah, no, I will do, but, but yeah, it just, so it got very out of hand and it, and I, I generally did find it very funny, like the whole thing. And I got another really good talk out of it. So I was quite, you know, I was quite happy with it in the end, but it did get to a point where I'm like reading through these comments and people were saying like, I feel nothing but white hot rage towards this woman.

Like someone saying, oh, I hope she doesn't walk down any dark alleys at night. Like all this kind of, it got really threatening and weird. And I was like, so weird.

So yeah, after that I, I felt inclined to have a little break because I was like, oh, this.

Steve:
Oh really? So you feel as if that made you want not want to do talks?

Amy:
Well, I think when it first happened, I already had some other talks booked in and so I sort of made the most of it and it ended up being quite a funny little anecdote at the start of the talks I did afterwards. But I think, yeah, it did. There is a point where if you're reading, like, I mean, it had something crazy, like maybe a hundred or more comments on it, which is a bit, you know, I'm not a famous person by any stretch.

So I'm not used to that level of feedback, I suppose. And it's not really, and it's just, and it was just hateful. And I got to the point where it was almost like a switch flipped, like the first sort of 30 odd comments.

I was just laughing. I was screenshotting them, sending to my friends. I thought that it was just funny.

And then it suddenly hit this point where I was like, oh my God, these people who don't even know me really passionately hate me. And that feels, and I was sending me kind of vaguely threatening messages. And I just sort of thought, oh, I don't know that I'm quite robust enough for this right now.

So yeah, I think I need a little break after that, but I feel all right about it again now.

Steve:
It's, yeah, it sounds horrible. It does sound really horrible.

Amy:
genuinely, I'm not like, I'm not just saying it, it really didn't, it really was mainly funny. It was more funny than anything else to me. Like the, he looks like such a funny man, the guy that did it.

He's just, he kind of looks like a, I described only as like, it looks a bit like a child's drawing of Santa. Like if you imagine a child drew a picture of Santa, it would be this man's face, but, and the whole thing was just, it was so ridiculous that it kind of was funny, but yeah, it gets, and I had, I had a lot going on in my personal life at that point. So when you're reading all these people going like, oh, I wish she was dead or, you know, it's like, oh, really like.

Steve:
No, I mean, the nearest I've come to that, which is my no stretch of the imagination, the same. I did a talk at the, in Paris web, I think it was back in 2011 or something. And somebody wrote a, a review of my talk saying it was the worst talk ever.

But you know, yeah, I mean, I found that slow. Yeah. I don't agree with them.

Huh?

Amy:
Worst talk ever though. So at least you hit a kind of, you know, I know. Yeah.

Steve:
Well, people, people would, you know, when I talk, people either like them or, or for the most part, dislike them. So that's fine. That's, that's part of the thing.

I don't, but I was thinking about what you were saying is that as far as I don't talk, that often, I, because I don't really enjoy it that much and be because I get asked that much and see, because I'll only talk when I've got something that I think is, you know, worth saying, which, which most of the time isn't. so, but I did state of the browser as well. I think must be in the year after you 2024.

Amy:
Okay.

Steve:
That was fun.

Amy:
Yeah.

Steve:
I'm actually talking in,  a Dutch conference called the NCDT conference at the end of the month.

Amy:
Okay.

Steve:
Which, because part of my work, I'm, I'm working with two guys from, the Dutch government who, who one guy called Hidde De Vries and another guy.

Amy:
Yeah.

Steve:
Yeah. Yeah. Well, that's how you pronounce his name correctly.

He's hit up, but I always say, and he's somebody. Somebody who works with a guy called Jeroen Hulsher. We're three of us or anything, specification that W3C,  to do with, evaluation methodologies for testing websites and web apps or whatever.

We're updating it. So, I'd be talking about that at this conference in English though, because I didn't speak. And I, I was, no, I don't speak Dutch.

I was in the, the, it's only a day. It's like in the morning, there's, there's plenary sessions in the afternoon. There's breakout sessions.

And I'm in one. I was hit. I was one of the plenary sessions.

They decided it was, it sounded too dull. talking about the WCAG-EM, but, so I don't mind makes no difference to me. and, uh, so yeah, so I'm looking forward to that, but that'll be off the back of, we've got, we, because Tetralogical is a remote company, we obviously don't see each other that often.

Um, we have, uh, a Tetralogical week, which is actually three days, uh, each year, at least once a year where we all meet up. Uh, this, this year it's in York. So, yeah, yeah.

Cause I, I like York and, one of the people that I work with, and Joe Lamyman, he's getting married at the end of that week on the Saturday. so yeah,  we decided to have it in York. So if people want to stay on and, and go to, cause he invited us all to the wedding.

Amy:
Oh, that's nice. That's how, you know, you've got a good team where you get invited to each other's weddings, I think.

Steve:
Yeah. Well, he's a, I really liked Joe, Joe Lamyman, his name is, he lives in York as well. And also David Swallow.

I'll get to see David Swallow as well.

Amy:
Yeah. Sounds like a nice little trip.

Steve:
Yeah. And then there'll be the TL all week and then I'm going to the Netherlands.

Amy:
Nice.

Steve:
So you're on tour. Yeah. Well, anyway, yes.

so you can't mention where you, you're doing your talks or you don't want to mention them yet.

Amy:
I just don't think it's been, do you know what? Can I Google very quickly while we're here? Yeah, Let me Google, see if it's been, if it's been announced, then I'll say, but if it hasn't, then I don't.

Steve:
Yeah, don't worry.

Amy:
I know one of them, uh, might have been, I think the other one, I don't know if they're like teasering the speakers, you know, so I don't know if I would get in trouble.

Steve:
Yeah, that's fine. I'll just, just thought if you, there was, uh, if it was public, then you could, uh, no, I haven't been announced yet. Give yourself a shout out.

Amy:
I'll give, if it's been announced by the time this goes out, I'll chuck you a link.

Steve:
yeah, yeah.

Amy:
Yeah.

Steve:
And, uh, having, having said that is, we've been going for an hour and a quarter now, and my dinner is going to be really soon.

Amy:
Oh, I need to go make my dinner. So, that works.

Steve:
It's been, yeah, unfortunately, I mean that, uh, I think we could continue to talk for hours, but, and, and hopefully next time now I've met you, you know, here, that's the funny thing is that I feel more comfortable talking, you know, to, to people like people I've known, like Bruce Lawson, I've known for years and, and I've just really, I don't know if you know a guy called Karl Groves.

Amy:
No.

Steve:
Anyway, Karl's an accessibility person. I used to work with him and he's well known, but he's also quite combatitive, but, I just, I've enjoyed my conversations for our side with them that, and it's given me a new, uh, I feel, yeah, a new like for people.

So, having this is the first, uh, experience of, of talking to you has made me think what a great person you are.

Amy:
Oh, that's nice to know. At least imagine if you came away from thinking, God, what a bitch. She's awful.

Steve:
Yeah, no, no, no, not at all. As I say, I wish we had more time.

Amy:
Me too. But maybe in part two. Yeah.

Steve:
Yeah.

Amy:
Maybe after the next time I get nearly cancelled, we can do another one and, and recap that, do a bit of PR work.

Steve:
Yeah. I'm really interested to, to see that. And also, what I was going to say was that I feel a bit bad because I think the, the, I may have been at conferences where you've talked, but I didn't listen because I tend to not.

And, and then I was thinking, well, I listened to, to Eric's talk, but he was probably the only talk that I sat through the whole time at a11yTOI. And I was just wondering to myself, is that because he's a guy that I, that I found that he's, he's, I don't think it is. I think he's, it's just that he's very serious.

And, and I, that's why I sat through it because he seems so sincere and serious.

Amy:
Oh, I, yeah. If that's what you're after, I wouldn't, I wouldn't come.

Steve:
Oh no, I'm not after that.

Amy:
They're not very sincere and serious. I'm not. No, it's, you're fine because actually one talk I did, I think it was the last one I did.

Somebody in the front row nodded off during my talk.

Steve:
Really?

Amy:
If you didn't do that, then you're.

Steve:
Yeah. Well, at least I had the, the courtesy to leave and go for a sleep.

Amy:
Yeah.

Steve:
Yeah. Anyway, Amy, I really appreciate you coming to talk.

Amy:
Yeah. Thank you for having me.

Steve:
And we'll talk again soon.

Amy:
Yeah, for sure.

Steve:
And remember, have a look on htmlz, choose what you want. Tell me, because I, I don't get it through. I get through the, the organization or the company that, that makes the stuff for me, my fulfillment partner.

And so it's cheaper for me to do that. That actually, you know, get it from them.

Amy:
Yeah.

Steve:
So just tell me something and I'll send that off to you, but you'll need to give me your address.

Amy:
Yes, I will. I'll email you all the links and my address.

Steve:
All right. All right. Well, thanks.

Good to meet you. See you.

Do you think you're joking? Well, I don't know why. You said you loved me. Well, that won't stop you crying.

I don't know why I love you, but I do. And you know that it's true. Wake me up and stay with me, too. 

Just be afraid that we're through. You said you loved me. Well, I don't know why.

You said you loved me. Well, that won't stop you crying. I don't know why I love you, but I do. 

And you know that it's true. Wake me up and stay with me, too. Just be afraid that we're through.

You said you loved me. Well, I don't know why. You said you loved me. 

Well, that won't stop you crying. I don't know why I love you, but I do. And you know that it's true.

I'm wasting my night and it's tearing me, too. Just be afraid that we're through. Do you think you're joking? Do you think you're joking? Take a look. 

I was waiting for my girl. I was gonna take her home, yeah. But the video went down and my baby just don't come. 

And my eyes keep on screaming. And I know there's something going wrong and something I can't find. Yeah, the world's jumping in and out. 

It was life and the death you take behind. I was hanging at the club. I was waiting for some girl. 

I was gonna take her home, yeah. But the video went down and my baby just don't come. And my eyes keep on screaming.

And I know there's something going wrong and something I can't find. Yeah, the world's jumping in and out. It was life and the death you take behind.

I was waiting at the club. I was waiting for my girl. I was gonna take her home, yeah.

But the video went down and my baby just don't come. And my eyes keep on screaming, yeah. And I know there's something going wrong and something I can't find.

Yeah, the world's jumping in and out. It was life and the death you take behind. Yeah, the world's jumping in and out. 

It was life and the death you take behind.